Re: German sharp S uppercase mapping

On 12/2/2024 1:12 PM, David Starner via Unicode wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 11:27 PM Asmus Freytag via Unicode
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> What you are arguing is that one should not use that fallback any
>> longer. I have no arguments with that, but in this case, the fallback
>> was used.
> Let me break it down into two points. Starting with the less
> controversial, when counting the use of the capital ẞ, one should
> count ß in uppercase contexts separately from SS.
Wait, what are we counting now?
> Secondly, is there a position that ß should be used in uppercase
> contexts, especially as opposed to using ẞ?

I've stated, as fact, that the example shows a fallback using the 
lowercase in an ALL CAPS context. This fallback was discussed 
extensively as part of the background research for the proposal to 
encode the uppercase form. Therefore, the fallback is not a simple typo, 
but something that was practiced and perhaps even recommended by some 
(at the time).

As you quote, I agreeing with whoever I replied to that the fallback has 
outlived its usefulness. So your question here is disingenuous.

> If there's absolutely no
> such movement, I think it clear that ß should be counted as a glyph
> variant of ẞ in uppercase contexts.

Different letters aren't glyph variants of each other, they are 
alternate spellings.

I have no issue with acknowledging that alternate spellings exist in 
this context (ALL CAPS). Incidentally, SS is also one of the alternate 
spellings.

I would be happy if things settled to where the single capital letter 
becomes the preferred spelling. But that's different from reading a 
lowercase letter "as if" it were the uppercase one.

>   Fallbacks like that are almost
> always normalized; older texts usually have long-s turned to s and
> scriptorial abbreviations expanded when published, for example. If
> there is a serious movement against ẞ and for ß as uppercase, then I'm
> wrong. I'm certainly biased towards having neat upper-lowercase pairs.

Yes, and strawman argument. Nobody is asking for a "movement against ẞ 
and for ß as uppercase ", but we are arguing against calling a lowercase 
letter an uppercase letter (in a specific example where the glyph 
clearly marks it as the lowercase one).

Pretending that alternate spellings aren't used is not helpful. And it's 
not required as a precondition to having a preferred spelling different 
from the example we discussed.

A./

>