[Long] Re: [JUG-Delhi] Sun makes merry with M$

Rahul Kumar wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 12:20:52PM +0530, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
> 
>>I really hope that Java enthusiasts wake up and see what is going on. 
>>Java was never the language of the masses like C/C++ or Perl or Pascal 
>>or Fortran or most other languages - it was always Sun's language. Sun 
>>decides what to do with it, Sun decides which direction the language 
>>should go. At the end of the day, Sun is just a business - so Java's 
>>future is going to be decided by business compulsions. Sun has never 
>>submitted the Java language to a standards body and doesnt in the least 
>>even wants to.
> 
> I dont disagree with you at all here. But i have also read that Sun is
> still considering the OS angle. It hasnt completely given up.
> Sun says that all decisions are taken together with Oracle, IBM, BEA and
> other major players, so it isnt just Sun's business.
> 
> 
>>We should stop sitting down there looking upto Java and seeing where Sun 
>>takes us today or tomorrow, and then dutifully going that way.
>>
>>What people dont realise is that in our larger interest, we need to take 
>>Java away from Sun and keep with the masses. Projects like Kaffe or gcj 
>>etc. are really important for the community in the long term view, if 
>>you really want Java to survive.
> 
> Actually (NOT my opinion), if Java didnt have the backing of Sun, it
> would not have the support it has today with industry majors and
> device vendors. (You can refute that by saying that Linux does.)

Any enterprise driven language or language framework will have industry 
support. One of Javas hallmark was that i was probably the first 
enterprise driven framework (J2EE) and where enterprise level software 
is available people will be there. Another of Javas hallmark (which 
still distinguishes it from .Net) is that the frameworks have (atleast 
till now) available on a royalty-free basis. Sun has been relatively 
ambivalent about letting other companies like BEA, IBM etc come out with 
  alternatives and comptetitors to its own products on their own 
platform (Java).

Contrast it with .Net where I personally havent seen any development 
platforms other than Visual Studio being available or any web servers 
other than IIS being made available which can host ASP.Net apps.

I am not sure how .Net will progress with industry support if Microsoft 
intends to be the only solution provider for their platform. For a 
platform to be genuinely adopted widely, it needs to allow people to 
come up with altenatives. But again Microsoft has never been known as a 
company which promotes choice for the consumer - "You can use any 
development platform as long as it is visual studio.Net". :)


> 
> 
> It already is, and has been for some years. It is losing several
> billion a year, and with Linux servers taking away market share, it
> doesnt look like it can recover - unless something drastic changes.
> Also, Sun earns almost nothing from Java.

Sun doesnt make anything direclty with Java, but has two sources of 
income - one is the multitude of Java based products like SunOne,Java 
Desktop and secondly for licensing Java technology to n number of 
platforms every Java based PDA or manufacturer needs to licence the Java 
technology(VM?) from Sun, AFAIK.

Sun does make enough money off Java - dont you worry about that.

> 
> 
>>will do with Java? Every Java developer is on shaky grounds here - the 
>>only thing bright about Java is that the industry support and the 
>>install base that it has. But that can change as soon as other 
>>competitors emerge (like .Net/C#). You are totally at the mercy of Sun 
>>in that case.
>>
>>I am not trying to evangelise .Net over here. I am just trying to get 
>>across the message that all Java users should be on their toes and read 
>>the signals that are coming from Sun and others very carefully as it can 
>>affect all of your future gravely.
> 
> Even after that, what are the options. If .NET picks up and its also NOT
> open source, do we reskill ourselves/ realign ourselves with a vendor
> whose jaws we got out of with a lot of difficulty.

Maybe or maybe not. But people should always be open to reskilling if it 
helps them to survive in this professional world. Thousands of peopl did 
reskill themselves from the Y2K days to the latest in programming 
technologies.

You dont have much of a choice if your professioal career is dependent 
on any company specific technology. People dont realise that the whole 
idea of Java "freeing up" users doesnt cut much ice when the desktop 
platform used by 90% of the world and the server platform used by ..umm 
i dont know .. a lot of the world, is actually closed source.

The importance of the open source movement and the impact of work being 
done like Kaffe,gcj, mono can only be understood in this light.

These Free re-implementations may not be complete - but again, this is 
somethign we all own! And these projects can only be successful if 
people like us actualy participate in them in our own ways and help make 
them complete.

> Or do we move back to C++, huge development cycles, and closed source
> compilers (gcc doesnt cut it on all platforms).
> Do we move to untyped scripting languages like perl and python for
> mission critical apps?
> Just asking, not challenging!

Yeah, maybe you got to move back to C++/CORBA/Memory leaks/Purify etc. 
all over again. ;)

> 
>>Read your news carefully. A big change might be on the cards in the 
>>coming years. After all, how many years has Java actually been here? And 
>>how many years has C been here? ;)
>>
> 
> Sandip. what are the options if Sun closes/ or changes to a new license.:
> - the language itself cannot be  copyrighted, can it ??
> - do any changes affect existing code/apps
> - can someone write a free/open JDK/VM which can be used to run existing
>   or new apps
> - what is IBM's JDK license like ( sorry but i am bad at legalese)
> 
> I mean just like Mono, can the OS crowd take Java into its own hands?
> --

The language specification is open but I am not sure about the condition 
undr which the Java virtual machine specifications are allowed to be 
re-implemented.


 From the debian FAQ, (Read this! it is very informative!)

http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-java-faq/ch5.html#s5.3.1.1

[...]
5.3.1.1 Why is Sun's Java 2 SE (aka jdk 1.2) not available?

Due to license problems. Clause 2 of the license (check also the FAQ) 
that comes with is says:

   Software is confidential and copyrighted. Title to Software and all
   associated intellectual property rights is retained by Sun and/or its
   licensors.  Except as specifically authorized in any Supplemental
   License Terms, you may not make copies of Software, other than a
   single copy of Software for archival purposes.

2.3.1.2 What are the problems with Suns' new license?

Sun has moved to a new license the Sun Community License, like the GPL 
it is a viral license, but making all it touches subject to Sun 
licensing fee. The SCSL even goes so far as to define any implementation 
of a Sun specification as a "Modified Work". Basically, this means that 
if you implement any part of the new 1.2 API or Jini API, even from 
scratch, Sun will "own" your implementation and you will have to pay 
them for the right to use it.

[...]

5.3.2.1 Can Debian distribute IBM's jdk1.1?

It seems not. It has the following license:

Program Code

Consists of the IBM Developer Kit for Linux(R), Java(TM) Technology 
Edition, Version 1.1.8, in Binary Code form, as modified by IBM to run 
on the RedHat(R)6.0 Linux or Caldera(R) OpenLinux 2.2 Operating systems. 
The Program Code consists of the Java virtual machine, the Java platform 
core classes and supporting files (also known as the Java Runtime 
Environment or JRE) Java Tool Kit, Documentation and Java Samples. 
Program Code may include soft copy documentation, readme files, program 
data and such like.

You may only use the Program Code if you are a current licensee of 
Redhat 6.0  Linux or Caldera OpenLinux 2.2 Operating systems and the 
Program Code may only be used in conjunction with such products.

[...]




-- 
Sandip Bhattacharya
sandip (at) puroga.com
Puroga Technologies Pvt. Ltd.
Work: http://www.puroga.com        Home: http://www.sandipb.net

GPG: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3


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