Re: Betrayel

On Fri, 09 Aug 2024 13:00:45 +0100, someone <[email protected]> wrote:

> slider wrote:
>> someone wrote:
>
>>> Why some folk can't experience any sort
>>> of a figure-ground reversal may be curious.
>>> Even taking shrooms in a controlled setting
>>> might not do the trick.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment
>>
>> ### - but it does do the trick, every single time,
>
> I don't think it did and do think it doesn't.
>
> https://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-23-91-01-001.pdf
>
> << ... Pahnke arbitrarily determined that
> for a mystical experience to be  considered complete
> for the purposes of the experiment, out of the maximum total
> possible score. "the total score and the score in each separate
> category must be at least 60 to 70 percent"
>
> According to this cut-off point, "Four of the ten
> psilocybin subjects reached the 60 to 70 percent level
> of completeness, ...
>
> Pahnke reported that "eight out of ten of the experimental subjects
> experienced at least seven out of the nine categories ...
>
> Out of the seven psilocybin subjects formally interviewed, only
> two had had Good Friday experiences that they reported to be
> completely positive without significant psychic struggles. The
> others all felt moments in which they feared they were either
> going crazy, dying. or were too weak for the ordeal they were
> experiencing. ... >>
>
> In another, perhaps, scientific, experiment.
>
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4813425/
>
> <<  Based on measures of mystical experience,
> 22 of the 36 volunteers had a complete mystical experience
> after psilocybin administration, ... >>

### - the 'fact' remains that everyone who took it WAS affected in SOME  
manner, they might not have had a beautiful mystical experience or seen  
'god' or whatever, in many instances what people experience is an absolute  
nightmare, but affect them in SOME way it does!

and that's precisely my point: subjective experiences may differ from  
beautiful to horror itself, that because something, some  
mind-barrier/filter then, comes down under its influence and people (and  
even animals) have very strange experiences concerning their perception...  
educated and disciplined people apparently having a more acceptable  
experience, whereas someone not liking it and panicking usually has a  
horrible experience...

guaranteed, however, is that every single one of us - either in terror or  
in rapture, experiences profound insights at least briefly under their  
influence, their original state of mind dictating whether it's nice or  
horrible having nothing to do with it...



>
>> iow: it's obviously in everyone to be 'able' to do and to experience  
>> these
>> things, whether through drugs or discipline some facet of the psyche
>> becomes active/activated and we experience accordingly,
>
> I don't know if, everyone, is able to.

### - yeah you do, i.e., find 'any' example of someone taking lsd or  
shrooms, or any other powerful psychoactive substance and it doesn't have  
any effect upon them whatsoever?? and that would be clear evidence that  
not 'everyone' has it in them to do/experience it...

truth is all the evidence goes completely the other way and 'everyone'  
(even animals!) are affected by such substances to varying degrees...





>> the real question thus being: why, if it's so universal, is it all so
>> generally suppressed/repressed!
>
> Maybe some people experience paranoia,
> they don't appreciate ego-loss, lack of control, etc.

### - exactly! i totally agree with that... that the 'type' of experience  
people have is down to lots of reasons & factors... e.g., someone whose  
been meditating for years would very likely have a lovely/beautiful  
experience full of amazing insights, whereas someone whose just been  
involved in say a horrible separation from their partner or who got badly  
mugged/involved in a fight only the day before, would more likely have an  
unpleasant experience...

imho though, the real reason why such universally available experiences  
are generally suppressed/repressed in society, is all down to the way  
people are raised and the expectations they then have because of the way  
they were socialised to fit-in... e.g., people tripping don't make very  
good or reliable factory workers! they're too distracted to focus on  
working all day long making obscure machine parts or whatever, their head  
is someplace else altogether!

what 'society' wants though IS good reliable factory workers, so anything  
that goes against that is automatically banned...




>> ### - nailing/pinning everything down is the rational world only; a tiny
>> island consisting of a single perceptual option that no one in their  
>> right
>> mind + given the choice, would ever choose over everything else ;)
>
> Intellect has its limits.

###- actually, yes! intellect 'only' goes so far and then stops, what  
shrooms and the like provides are only peeks into what's out there  
'beyond' the limitations of intellect...

drugs push people 'artificially' to go beyond their intellectual limits so  
the resulting experience is not really within their full control and often  
chaotic... via inner discipline, however, it's quite possible to reach  
very similar states of awareness that are not distorted by an artificial  
substance...

the point being that those experiences exist for everyone who dares to  
reach them, either through artificial means or via inner discipline &  
training...

the latter choice obviously being the more desirable