Re: Betrayel

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:37:04 +0100, one <[email protected]> wrote:


>> the higher principles won the day and
>> the so-called white version of morality lost...
>
> Not sure about the topic at this point.

### - we've been playing around with language & perception in order to  
perhaps arrive at a higher truth/understanding, you avoiding being pinned  
down by escaping-off into ambiguity & plays on words, whereas my basic  
argument has been steadily along the lines of, e.g., this quote:

"Anyone who perceives their shadow and light simultaneously sees  
themselves from two sides and thus gets in the middle." --Carl Jung ;)

this spelling/marking the 'end' of the dualistic approach...




>> i mean, i look around here and everyone's cups are already filled to
>> overflowing, there's no room for anything more or different, people  
>> don't
>> like/resent anything 'different', they like to feel that they've gots it
>> all nailed down already...
>
> I don't know about, everyone. Nor everyone's cup
> being as you say it appears to you to be.
>
> You appear to have a projection screen projecting screens
> that screen what apears to you to be, stereotyping.

### - no, taking into account that words & terms are not (and cannot be)  
definitive, and are in fact often completely misleading, we're thus forced  
to use language/words in novel ways to communicate...

iow: we can't take anything said literally, knowing its limitations all we  
can honestly do is to 'allude' to certain things people already know in a  
variety of ways, knowing that the other person understands what one is  
'trying' to say through a veil of inaccurate words... poetry being one  
such use of novel language to allude to things that cannot be accurately  
defined... thus metaphor, similes & analogy are the only tools we have...  
there are always exceptions to any rule but we're not talking about those  
(we, for example, might be/represent those exceptions, standing on the  
sidelines observing/making-observations)





>>> The world is said to be sacred.
>>> Trying to change it is not advised.
>>
>> ### - are you suggesting/saying that the tibetan buddhists are in error
>> working to enlighten the whole world? that it's not advisable??
>
> Paradigms vary.
>
> I was saying what a saying is
> given a Taoist paradigm, imo.

### - nevertheless, we still both know what we're talking about in the  
context its currently been framed, you just have a terrible tendency to  
keep going-off on irrelevant/dualistic tangents is all, if otoh that's  
your way of saying/stating you no longer wish to continue along this line  
of thought/thinking then thats fine too, we can stop at any point but your  
argument loses the debate...




>> or does
>> that perhaps only apply to those who don't really know what they're  
>> doing,
>> an injunction as such to those people to wait until they 'do' know what
>> they're doing!
>
> When being spontaneous, one does.
> When being drawn by a cause, one does.
>
> How to do without doing, to be in the Zone,
> to transcend right and wrong could be an other
> mode and still yet suggest a duality exists.

### - the vast majority of humanity lives entirely in a dualistic good/bad  
interpretation of life, the universe & everything wherein everything has  
either a positive/negative value, philosophies like buddhism and/or the  
tao being systems of ideas purporting to exist 'beyond' such a simplistic  
approach (there's 2D/dualism which is flat, and then there's 3D buddhism  
which has depth)





>> - iow: don't look for the spiritually advanced among ordinary people,
>> such types are more usually outcasts, tramps, even mentally ill... they
>> never quite 'fit-in', they're outsiders looking in...
>
> I often see the most spiritually advance among ordinary people
> as well as among other people, given an aye to sea.

### - "out of the mouths of babes & sucklings" ya mean? that happens too,  
only they're not usually aware of it themselves or even realise they've  
said anything of any moment... truth exists everywhere and occasionally  
leaks-out/bursts-through, usually completely unnoticed but occasionally  
observed by the astute...





>>> Theirs could be a difficult Road, Way, Tao.
>>
>> ### - one accepts that the life of a policemen is never an easy one...
>>
>> after all, they're forced every day to always see both sides of every  
>> coin
>> and debate/decide something, it's their work/job ;)
>
> Whether, they, are forced, choose, have a free form
> of will, desire and/or knot could be semantics.

### - smile, there you go again 'deflecting' from the point made and  
escaping-off into ambiguity using the very semantics you say/suggest  
is/can-be misleading?

fyi... examining different lines of thought doesn't automatically commit  
one to them, rather the opposite actually: observing them frees us from  
them...





>> i like the bodhisattva story... i mean, here was a dude who'd reached
>> enlightenment! actually made it all the way! and he could have  
>> presumably
>> just gone-off doing all the incredible things enlightened people can
>> probably do with such gifts... his problem was that he clearly saw that
>> humanity had nothing, nada, were spiritually poverty stricken with no  
>> hope
>> of ever finding anything, zip! and that kinda hurt him ya see?
>
> I see a story you appear to recall.
>
> An impression of mine was that a bodhisattva takes a vow.

### - the buddhists know (or should know) that there will come a time when  
they have to 'get-off the road' in order to realise the teachings... at  
which point they will drop all the dressing up in robes & rituals etc (the  
outer forms of buddhism) and cease to 'be' buddhists altogether...  
buddhism being only a means to an end, a road/path of learning and not the  
end itself, the journey not the destination...

i.e., there 'is' also such a thing as arriving ya know ;)






>> to him it was unthinkable that he could just piss-off to go-live an
>> exalted life of riley while that poor bunch of bastards have nothing
>> whatsoever, and in all likelihood never will...
>>
>> he had compassion for them, see? or maybe he was just an idiot hah!
>>
>> either way, he decided to stay with them, and then at least they had  
>> 'him'
>> then didn't they!
>>
>> perforce they loved & revered him for that, of course they did, but he
>> just *couldn't* abandon them, ya know?
>>
>> only a great being could ever do something like that!
>
> If that's what a great being is, for you, then that's great.
>
> Sounds to me like its more of a martyr/ego trip.
> A kind of a partial realization, not a full-fledged mystical
> experience of non-duality where there are no, others, etc.
>
> Enlightenment is a word.
> What the meaning of it may well vary.

### - ambiguity, ambiguity, all is ambiguity? (hehehe)

again, just taking about things doesn't automatically commit people to  
them so there's no need to deflect, it's not an attack, it's just a debate  
wherein both parties come out the wiser for it...

in this instance it's a 3D-discussion, not a flat dualistic/2D one, we've  
already left dualism far behind/below... so don't keep looking down at  
your feet walking along a wire, look straight ahead and the wobbling will  
cease :)