Re: Betrayel

slider wrote:
> one wrote:
>> slider wrote:

>>> the higher principles won the day and
>>> the so-called white version of morality lost...
>>
>> Not sure about the topic at this point.
>
>### - we've been playing around with language & perception in order to  
>perhaps arrive at a higher truth/understanding, you avoiding being pinned  
>down by escaping-off into ambiguity & plays on words, whereas my basic  
>argument has been steadily along the lines of, e.g., this quote:
>
>"Anyone who perceives their shadow and light simultaneously sees  
>themselves from two sides and thus gets in the middle." --Carl Jung ;)
>
>this spelling/marking the 'end' of the dualistic approach...

You seemed to be seeing a white
version of morality and higher principles
won the day. I might be able to see what you 
say and then again, call it a selective perception.

>>> i mean, i look around here and everyone's cups are already filled to
>>> overflowing, there's no room for anything more or different, people  
>>> don't
>>> like/resent anything 'different', they like to feel that they've gots it
>>> all nailed down already...
>>
>> I don't know about, everyone. Nor everyone's cup
>> being as you say it appears to you to be.
>>
>> You appear to have a projection screen projecting screens
>> that screen what apears to you to be, stereotyping.
>
>### - no, taking into account that words & terms are not (and cannot be)  
>definitive, and are in fact often completely misleading, we're thus forced  
>to use language/words in novel ways to communicate...

Okay.

>iow: we can't take anything said literally, knowing its limitations all we  
>can honestly do is to 'allude' to certain things people already know in a  
>variety of ways, knowing that the other person understands what one is  
>'trying' to say through a veil of inaccurate words... poetry being one  
>such use of novel language to allude to things that cannot be accurately  
>defined... thus metaphor, similes & analogy are the only tools we have...  
>there are always exceptions to any rule but we're not talking about those  
>(we, for example, might be/represent those exceptions, standing on the  
>sidelines observing/making-observations)

Presumptions continue to continue. Axioms,
as it were and communicating can be interesting.

People who were diagnosed with a mental illness,
having had a Christ or cosmic consciousness type
of experience, may say they are God or a shaman
and be unable to communicate how great it is nor
heal so-called, average, people who might be
perpetuating forms of what is called evil.

>>>> The world is said to be sacred.
>>>> Trying to change it is not advised.
>>>
>>> ### - are you suggesting/saying that the tibetan buddhists are in error
>>> working to enlighten the whole world? that it's not advisable??
>>
>> Paradigms vary.
>>
>> I was saying what a saying is
>> given a Taoist paradigm, imo.
>
>### - nevertheless, we still both know what we're talking about in the  
>context its currently been framed,

I'm not sure what you are talking about.
What occurs to me are techniques, ways.

Trying to enlighten the world presumes
the world is not enlightened. 

From a pov of expanded consciousness, there
may be viewed as well as experienced a Self
who sees through all eyes and hears with
every ear being all beings even being
Being, Existence. Figure-ground types
of reversals might be common for mystics.

If there is such a Self, at play, who plays
all parts, masking its elves sewing two speak,
then to be concerned with enlightenment may
be called being a tad bit involved in the play.

Perspectives vary.

> you just have a terrible tendency to  
>keep going-off on irrelevant/dualistic tangents is all,

To heal some body, whether it be an average
number of average people or a so-called individual
may have been a topic of this thread.

> if otoh that's  
>your way of saying/stating you no longer wish to continue along this line  
>of thought/thinking then thats fine too, we can stop at any point but your  
>argument loses the debate...

You appear to continue to see
or think or feel there is a debate.

I find our conversation being a discussion.
For a time being to discuss eternity is curious, imo.

>>> or does
>>> that perhaps only apply to those who don't really know what they're  
>>> doing,
>>> an injunction as such to those people to wait until they 'do' know what
>>> they're doing!
>>
>> When being spontaneous, one does.
>> When being drawn by a cause, one does.
>>
>> How to do without doing, to be in the Zone,
>> to transcend right and wrong could be an other
>> mode and still yet suggest a duality exists.
>
>### - the vast majority of humanity lives entirely in a dualistic good/bad  
>interpretation of life, 

Sounds like hyperbole to me. A statement
with presumptions to be taken for granted.

The vast majority of humanity may live mostly at one
with their family and friends without a thought about how
they are not-two nor with reflecting on good/bad.

At various points in their lives, during a day, they may say
a phenomenon is good or bad and then forget about it.

To make a claim about the, vast majority of humanity,
could be for the sake of beginning to begin a point.

>the universe & everything wherein everything has  
>either a positive/negative value, 

That would take some thought for the, vast majority.

To suppose average people are always putting values
such as positive/negative can be done. And yet,
perhaps, usually, there is no such activity going on.

Things are as they are, mostly all the time,
probably, for the vast majority of people.

To stop and judge could be a beginning of an end
of a state of being at one with all there is.

>philosophies like buddhism and/or the  
>tao being systems of ideas purporting to exist 'beyond' such a simplistic  
>approach (there's 2D/dualism which is flat, and then there's 3D buddhism  
>which has depth)

To use hyperbole to make a point could work to a point.

For the average Buddhist there might be Noble Truths,
the Fourth of which has a Path with eight rights.

For a mystical Buddhist, perhaps transcending samsara
and entering nirvana occurs from time to a time beyond time.

Whether people who were diagnosed with having a mental
form of being ill go beyond and return, or stay in a state
of higher than high, unable to speak and know might
be Way beyond healing.

>>> - iow: don't look for the spiritually advanced among ordinary people,
>>> such types are more usually outcasts, tramps, even mentally ill... they
>>> never quite 'fit-in', they're outsiders looking in...
>>
>> I often see the most spiritually advance among ordinary people
>> as well as among other people, given an aye to sea.
>
>### - "out of the mouths of babes & sucklings" ya mean? 

And average people who are actually very wise
quite frequently yet for purposes of this discussion
were perhaps deemed to be totally ignorant.

>that happens too,  
>only they're not usually aware of it themselves or even realise they've  
>said anything of any moment... truth exists everywhere and occasionally  
>leaks-out/bursts-through, usually completely unnoticed but occasionally  
>observed by the astute...

To have common sense could actually be very common.
Average common people are able to function well enough.

Seeing them as well-frogs as compared to sea-turtles occurs.
Maybe it's a form of spiritual pride, thinking of being enlightened.

A possibility is, a statement can be made, those who are
don't talk about it. Those who talk about it are not
there and then again, perhaps they were and
can, walk two Roads as a saying goes.

>>>> Theirs could be a difficult Road, Way, Tao.
>>>
>>> ### - one accepts that the life of a policemen is never an easy one...
>>>
>>> after all, they're forced every day to always see both sides of every  
>>> coin
>>> and debate/decide something, it's their work/job ;)
>>
>> Whether, they, are forced, choose, have a free form
>> of will, desire and/or knot could be semantics.
>
>### - smile, there you go again 'deflecting' from the point made and  
>escaping-off into ambiguity using the very semantics you say/suggest  
>is/can-be misleading?
>
>fyi... examining different lines of thought doesn't automatically commit  
>one to them, rather the opposite actually: observing them frees us from  
>them...

Whether the average police officer of a law is seen as well or ill
might depend on the seer who is doing the seeing of a scene.

To heal the laws, to repeal or make better,
the rules that are rules aren't always the Rule
and as a rule could be what happens when Tao,
Teh and other modes are lost.

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html#Kap38

Translations of TTC 38 vary.

http://www.mobilewords.pro/Tao/chap38.htm#top

For you, the topic may be dreams, Buddhism or
some other mental floss. For me, being in a Taoist
philosophy group, Taoism tends to be a bottom line.

>>> i like the bodhisattva story... i mean, here was a dude who'd reached
>>> enlightenment! actually made it all the way! and he could have  
>>> presumably
>>> just gone-off doing all the incredible things enlightened people can
>>> probably do with such gifts... his problem was that he clearly saw that
>>> humanity had nothing, nada, were spiritually poverty stricken with no  
>>> hope
>>> of ever finding anything, zip! and that kinda hurt him ya see?
>>
>> I see a story you appear to recall.
>>
>> An impression of mine was that a bodhisattva takes a vow.
>
>### - the buddhists know (or should know) that there will come a time when  
>they have to 'get-off the road' in order to realise the teachings... at  
>which point they will drop all the dressing up in robes & rituals etc (the  
>outer forms of buddhism) and cease to 'be' buddhists altogether...  
>buddhism being only a means to an end, a road/path of learning and not the  
>end itself, the journey not the destination...
>
>i.e., there 'is' also such a thing as arriving ya know ;)

Wu-wei can be a phrase.

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html#Kap48

http://www.mobilewords.pro/Tao/chap48.htm#top

For a phase to shift there may
be more than one Way.

Psychiatry might work, to a point, some times.
Not all doctors are evil nor are religious people.

How some body that has what is called an illness
functions varies quite a lot, imo.

To see average people as being sick
and mystics, Christ conscious folk, as well
is a possible view, a paradigm, shifting sands.

Sifting through words is fun for me
yet for some people probably a chore.

>>> to him it was unthinkable that he could just piss-off to go-live an
>>> exalted life of riley while that poor bunch of bastards have nothing
>>> whatsoever, and in all likelihood never will...
>>>
>>> he had compassion for them, see? or maybe he was just an idiot hah!
>>>
>>> either way, he decided to stay with them, and then at least they had  
>>> 'him'
>>> then didn't they!
>>>
>>> perforce they loved & revered him for that, of course they did, but he
>>> just *couldn't* abandon them, ya know?
>>>
>>> only a great being could ever do something like that!
>>
>> If that's what a great being is, for you, then that's great.
>>
>> Sounds to me like its more of a martyr/ego trip.
>> A kind of a partial realization, not a full-fledged mystical
>> experience of non-duality where there are no, others, etc.
>>
>> Enlightenment is a word.
>> What the meaning of it may well vary.
>
>### - ambiguity, ambiguity, all is ambiguity? (hehehe)

Siddhartha's was very simple, imo. Desire=suffering.
To stop suffering, let go of the desire.

Other forms of enlightenment might suggest non-duality
or being able to be in the Zone of sum sort.

Any spark might be an ah-ha moment, ore knot.
To be able to get along in a society, to oar knots, may
take a mite bit of doing, undoing, learning and unlearning.

>again, just taking about things doesn't automatically commit people to  
>them so there's no need to deflect, it's not an attack, it's just a debate  
>wherein both parties come out the wiser for it...

A discussion, a conversation, to be at ease
without any win-win nor loss can be for me
what a Usenet cross-posted thread is.

>in this instance it's a 3D-discussion, not a flat dualistic/2D one, we've  
>already left dualism far behind/below... so don't keep looking down at  
>your feet walking along a wire, look straight ahead and the wobbling will  
>cease :)

Some say the Gate is narrow.
Some say it is all a round. Every 
where and then again here and now.

The Great Present unfolds again!

- thanks! Cheers!