Re: Betrayel

On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 13:30:41 +0100, one <[email protected]> wrote:

> slider wrote:
>> one wrote:
>>> slider wrote:
>
>>>> the higher principles won the day and
>>>> the so-called white version of morality lost...
>>>
>>> Not sure about the topic at this point.
>>
>> ### - we've been playing around with language & perception in order to
>> perhaps arrive at a higher truth/understanding, you avoiding being  
>> pinned
>> down by escaping-off into ambiguity & plays on words, whereas my basic
>> argument has been steadily along the lines of, e.g., this quote:
>>
>> "Anyone who perceives their shadow and light simultaneously sees
>> themselves from two sides and thus gets in the middle." --Carl Jung ;)
>>
>> this spelling/marking the 'end' of the dualistic approach...
>
> You seemed to be seeing a white
> version of morality and higher principles
> won the day. I might be able to see what you
> say and then again, call it a selective perception.

### - we're merely following a particular line of thought here, that  
debate (as demonstrated in & by that true-story movie) is a viable tool  
for the reasons already provided...




>>>> i mean, i look around here and everyone's cups are already filled to
>>>> overflowing, there's no room for anything more or different, people
>>>> don't
>>>> like/resent anything 'different', they like to feel that they've gots  
>>>> it
>>>> all nailed down already...
>>>
>>> I don't know about, everyone. Nor everyone's cup
>>> being as you say it appears to you to be.
>>>
>>> You appear to have a projection screen projecting screens
>>> that screen what apears to you to be, stereotyping.
>>
>> ### - no, taking into account that words & terms are not (and cannot be)
>> definitive, and are in fact often completely misleading, we're thus  
>> forced
>> to use language/words in novel ways to communicate...
>
> Okay.
>
>> iow: we can't take anything said literally, knowing its limitations all  
>> we
>> can honestly do is to 'allude' to certain things people already know in  
>> a
>> variety of ways, knowing that the other person understands what one is
>> 'trying' to say through a veil of inaccurate words... poetry being one
>> such use of novel language to allude to things that cannot be accurately
>> defined... thus metaphor, similes & analogy are the only tools we  
>> have...
>> there are always exceptions to any rule but we're not talking about  
>> those
>> (we, for example, might be/represent those exceptions, standing on the
>> sidelines observing/making-observations)
>
> Presumptions continue to continue. Axioms,
> as it were and communicating can be interesting.

### - yes, exactly that... once both parties have a mutual context/frame  
they both accept, it's possible to talk about it in many different ways  
and the other person still knows what the other is saying... anyone  
overhearing it might thus hear something very different altogether  
(because they lack the original context) so it all sounds like nonsense to  
them, thus your acquaintances have dropped out because they've lost the  
thread heh... they've been left behind coz they couldn't keep up ;)





> People who were diagnosed with a mental illness,
> having had a Christ or cosmic consciousness type
> of experience, may say they are God or a shaman
> and be unable to communicate how great it is nor
> heal so-called, average, people who might be
> perpetuating forms of what is called evil.

### - there's no such thing as good or evil except as concepts in people's  
heads, concatenations of a divided mind... ditto any of the dualistic  
pairings which don't actually exist in nature as separate items (hot/cold,  
good/bad/ up or down etc etc) their being split/divided being only a  
perceptual illusion created by the rational mind which only functions  
based on perceiving everything as being divided




>>>>> The world is said to be sacred.
>>>>> Trying to change it is not advised.
>>>>
>>>> ### - are you suggesting/saying that the tibetan buddhists are in  
>>>> error
>>>> working to enlighten the whole world? that it's not advisable??
>>>
>>> Paradigms vary.
>>>
>>> I was saying what a saying is
>>> given a Taoist paradigm, imo.
>>
>> ### - nevertheless, we still both know what we're talking about in the
>> context its currently been framed,
>
> I'm not sure what you are talking about.
> What occurs to me are techniques, ways.
>
> Trying to enlighten the world presumes
> the world is not enlightened.

### - kinda... in dualistic terms (because that's all we have) it presumes  
humanity is on a path/journey from dark to light, from ignorance to  
understanding, from dualism to unity, which, because it's impossible to be  
accurate is all just a way of talking about strange phenomena, none of  
it's to be taken literally, yet we both know/understand what we're  
alluding to...




> From a pov of expanded consciousness, there
> may be viewed as well as experienced a Self
> who sees through all eyes and hears with
> every ear being all beings even being
> Being, Existence. Figure-ground types
> of reversals might be common for mystics.
>
> If there is such a Self, at play, who plays
> all parts, masking its elves sewing two speak,
> then to be concerned with enlightenment may
> be called being a tad bit involved in the play.
>
> Perspectives vary.

### - an expanded view is where it's at for sure, that's the whole aim,  
but to gain that expansion takes a little work, not so much by struggling  
to learn something new, but by un-learning something already learned and  
thus emptying one's cup ;)



> I find our conversation being a discussion.
> For a time being to discuss eternity is curious, imo.

### - for sure there's an exchange occurring, and yes we're discussing  
higher/expanded awareness in a roundabout manner & way because it's  
impossible to be direct about such things (i.e., it's impossible to  
discuss the irrational in rational terms and definitions, so we have to  
work around it)



>>>> or does
>>>> that perhaps only apply to those who don't really know what they're
>>>> doing,
>>>> an injunction as such to those people to wait until they 'do' know  
>>>> what
>>>> they're doing!
>>>
>>> When being spontaneous, one does.
>>> When being drawn by a cause, one does.
>>>
>>> How to do without doing, to be in the Zone,
>>> to transcend right and wrong could be an other
>>> mode and still yet suggest a duality exists.
>>
>> ### - the vast majority of humanity lives entirely in a dualistic  
>> good/bad
>> interpretation of life,
>
> Sounds like hyperbole to me. A statement
> with presumptions to be taken for granted.
>
> The vast majority of humanity may live mostly at one
> with their family and friends without a thought about how
> they are not-two nor with reflecting on good/bad.
>
> At various points in their lives, during a day, they may say
> a phenomenon is good or bad and then forget about it.
>
> To make a claim about the, vast majority of humanity,
> could be for the sake of beginning to begin a point.

### - i am indeed using that to make a point, it paints a  
picture/fixed-image we can both relate to, and then communicate via by  
changing/tweaking parts of that picture which the other sees/reads and  
understands accordingly...



>> the universe & everything wherein everything has
>> either a positive/negative value,
>
> That would take some thought for the, vast majority.

### - no, they do it completely without any thought whatsoever, they were  
raised that way until it's become their default mode, it's actually all  
they know and are aware of, life for them is thus all about earning enough  
money to pay the bills etc, it all adds-up/makes sense to them see? and  
that's how the vast majority live and aspire to...

and then you get characters like the buddha occasionally showing up  
saying/suggesting that that's all wrong, that there's a better way to be  
and to live, a way that involves having an expanded awareness and viewing  
things in a completely different way, a more 'unified' way, which he  
called the middle way ;)



> To suppose average people are always putting values
> such as positive/negative can be done. And yet,
> perhaps, usually, there is no such activity going on.

### - it's merely a product of their low order of awareness is all,  
they're not 'trying' to do things that way, it's the only way they're  
aware of! they were taught/trained from birth to do everything that way  
until that became the only reality that exists for them! only of course  
that's not true, they routinely close themselves off from examining any  
other way, that's the only way they can be effective, by taking it all for  
granted...




> Things are as they are, mostly all the time,
> probably, for the vast majority of people.
>
> To stop and judge could be a beginning of an end
> of a state of being at one with all there is.

### - that's a fair point... and IF that turns out to be the case one can  
always return to it then huh, that a temporary time-out is also ok  
occasionally, if for no other reason than to check one is indeed actually  
being correct (an intelligent person can do this no problem, in fact even  
needs to do that every so often so as to ensure one doesn't get carried  
away or has become complacent)




>> philosophies like buddhism and/or the
>> tao being systems of ideas purporting to exist 'beyond' such a  
>> simplistic
>> approach (there's 2D/dualism which is flat, and then there's 3D buddhism
>> which has depth)
>
> To use hyperbole to make a point could work to a point.
>
> For the average Buddhist there might be Noble Truths,
> the Fourth of which has a Path with eight rights.
>
> For a mystical Buddhist, perhaps transcending samsara
> and entering nirvana occurs from time to a time beyond time.
>
> Whether people who were diagnosed with having a mental
> form of being ill go beyond and return, or stay in a state
> of higher than high, unable to speak and know might
> be Way beyond healing.

### - they might not even be interested in healing or consider healing to  
be necessary, they may indeed be touching upon higher levels of perception  
all the time and not realise it because it appears normal to them to do  
that... but then that's not really the point... that point originally  
being that things like lsd alters people's awareness to the point that  
they see things in a different light, a crazy chaotic light when it comes  
to things like lsd and shrooms, there's no order to it (because order per  
se has been removed) and thus they experience a kaleidescope of images  
that may or may not make much sense, although profound insights into  
things is quite common in that state, it's just that they have no control  
over it all so for several hours they's tripping until it wears-off and  
their rational mind returns to them bringing all that missing order back  
to within their grasp again... that there's a connection to mental illness  
here...




>>>> - iow: don't look for the spiritually advanced among ordinary people,
>>>> such types are more usually outcasts, tramps, even mentally ill...  
>>>> they
>>>> never quite 'fit-in', they're outsiders looking in...
>>>
>>> I often see the most spiritually advance among ordinary people
>>> as well as among other people, given an aye to sea.
>>
>> ### - "out of the mouths of babes & sucklings" ya mean?
>
> And average people who are actually very wise
> quite frequently yet for purposes of this discussion
> were perhaps deemed to be totally ignorant.
>
>> that happens too,
>> only they're not usually aware of it themselves or even realise they've
>> said anything of any moment... truth exists everywhere and occasionally
>> leaks-out/bursts-through, usually completely unnoticed but occasionally
>> observed by the astute...
>
> To have common sense could actually be very common.
> Average common people are able to function well enough.

### - common sense is merely our shared rationality, it's all the things  
(common knowledge) people agree on... people even pride themselves on such  
things hehe - he's got great common sense! ;)




> Seeing them as well-frogs as compared to sea-turtles occurs.
> Maybe it's a form of spiritual pride, thinking of being enlightened.
>
> A possibility is, a statement can be made, those who are
> don't talk about it. Those who talk about it are not
> there and then again, perhaps they were and
> can, walk two Roads as a saying goes.

### - can't possibly talk about things like that 'directly', there being  
no rule that says one can't talk about such things 'in-directly though ;)

e.g., they asked the buddha (coz he seemed to know what was going on here  
on planet earth) what he thought it (life) was really all about then and  
why are we all here, and please explain it to them coz they wanna know...

and of course he can't tell them anything directly, so he tells them a  
strange little story...

about a man who was walking through the jungle one day feeling happy and  
carefree until he noticed he was being followed by a hungry tiger...  
somewhat alarmed he quickened his pace while trying to think of a  
solution, he didn't want to be eaten by a tiger...

at one point he comes to the edge of a cliff and sees no other way to get  
away but by trying to climb down via some vines he can see hanging there,  
tigers can't climb down a cliff he reasoned so he'll be safe if he can do  
that...

halfway down the cliff, however, he looks down and sees another hungry  
tiger waiting for him at the bottom... so now he doesn't know what to do!?

at that very moment, a little white mouse and a little black mouse appear  
at the top of the cliff and start chewing on the very same vine he's  
clinging to, and the man realises he's never going to escape from this  
terrible situation and feels sad...

at which point he notices some strawberries growing beside him, and  
without thinking he picks one and eats it... and declares that it was the  
best and the most beautiful strawberry he'd ever tasted!

most of the people listening were no doubt confused by his explanation,  
they didn't get it?

but some did... and some still do ;)



>
>>>>> Theirs could be a difficult Road, Way, Tao.
>>>>
>>>> ### - one accepts that the life of a policemen is never an easy one...
>>>>
>>>> after all, they're forced every day to always see both sides of every
>>>> coin
>>>> and debate/decide something, it's their work/job ;)
>>>
>>> Whether, they, are forced, choose, have a free form
>>> of will, desire and/or knot could be semantics.
>>
>> ### - smile, there you go again 'deflecting' from the point made and
>> escaping-off into ambiguity using the very semantics you say/suggest
>> is/can-be misleading?
>>
>> fyi... examining different lines of thought doesn't automatically commit
>> one to them, rather the opposite actually: observing them frees us from
>> them...
>
> Whether the average police officer of a law is seen as well or ill
> might depend on the seer who is doing the seeing of a scene.
>
> To heal the laws, to repeal or make better,
> the rules that are rules aren't always the Rule
> and as a rule could be what happens when Tao,
> Teh and other modes are lost.
>
> https://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html#Kap38
>
> Translations of TTC 38 vary.
>
> http://www.mobilewords.pro/Tao/chap38.htm#top
>
> For you, the topic may be dreams, Buddhism or
> some other mental floss. For me, being in a Taoist
> philosophy group, Taoism tends to be a bottom line.

### - everyone thinks their narrative is the bottom line, but in truth  
it's just a learned narrative, they weren't born thinking that way, they  
learned to do it...

the buddhists discovered a solution to this conundrum, however (they've  
been around for so long they know everything by now lol) and that is to  
learn to be a buddhist is all very fine and well, after all people have to  
start somewhere, but in order to actually 'realise' the teachings there  
will come a time when the outer form of buddhism also has to be  
dropped/discarded in order to arrive...



> Some say the Gate is narrow.
> Some say it is all a round. Every
> where and then again here and now.
>
> The Great Present unfolds again!

### - the great present is ever-present, it never goes away, people just  
stop seeing/living it is all, their narrative stands in the way/blocks  
their view of the sweetest strawberries growing right beside them ;)