Re: AW: Re:Sound Quality

On 15/01/2009, at 10:43 AM, Mark Ziebarth wrote:

> Hi Jan and Bryan,
> as this list and the slightly decreasing number of posts shows, the  
> days of
> the winning connection of Logic and TDM in “Logic TDM” seem to be  
> long gone.
> Four years ago I had to decide which way to go: Logic or Pro Tools  
> TDM.
> First I decided to go the Logic way but after a year I missed TDM a  
> lot,
> especially the latency problem of a native rig was painful for me.  
> Then I
> decided to use both: a native Logic rig for MIDI programming and a  
> Pro Tools
> HD system for audio recording, audio editing and mixing. That works  
> really
> good for me. I also use some of the Pro Tools software instruments  
> from the
> AIR group but record all MIDI in Logic because I am so much faster  
> in that
> application. I also own a Windows machine which hosts some software
> instruments but the MIDI is recorded in Logic. In the final stage of  
> a music
> project I record all software instruments into Pro Tools.
> It’s funny that all applications try to be the all-in-one-solution.  
> I’m
> experiencing the best results with my setup by using some programs  
> and a few
> computers to do my work. I don’t want to go back to a
> one-computer/application-solution for all of my work.
> I don’t have an answer for the sound-quality question as I never  
> tried to do
> the same project in two applications. There is no obvious difference  
> for me.
> I think it’s primarly a question of personal workarounds and how  
> good the
> application supports you in doing your job.
> My three-computer-system has much more power than a single one could  
> offer
> me and I am untroubled by computer crashes. That’s a very important  
> thing to
> me.

Mark, this is not just directed at you but at the thread in general -  
but I've quoted you because it's a good example of what I'm about to  
say.

This word "latency" - the thing that it is, comes in many shapes and  
sizes. So IMO to just use this word without any further explanation  
doesn't honestly give an indication of what is being referred to.

There's "round trip" latency which can become an issue when recording  
a live performer/s. The two sub categories here (where latency is  
concerned) are recording through an analog signal path and no plugins  
OR recording through some analog path and digitising and then doing  
further processing with plugins before recording.

Using sub group 1 there has been little or no tangible latency benefit  
by using TDM for at least 4 years because for at least this long  
there's been decent native audio hardware that yields less than 3ms  
latency while recording 16 tracks at once - maybe even more. And of  
course the native latency bar has been raised even further with newer  
native hardware like Apogee Symphony.

Just to put this in context, I have seen many a debate over what is  
regarded as acceptable latency for a live performer and the vast  
majority of views I've seen expressed (and my own view) suggest that  
around 3ms or lower is perfectly acceptable and  even verging on  
undetectable.

Sub group 2 (recording with plugins) TDM still has an advantage over  
native and I guess it always might. OSX was meant to offer native  
improvements in this area but I've not seen it. Plugin processing  
delays are still at OS9 levels based on my experiences.

Then there's a second kind of latency I call "half of round trip"  
latency which occurs when triggering a virtual instrument from a midi  
controller. Since TDM has never been a viable platform for MOST VI's  
to run in (or there would be more TDM VI's) - there is no comparison  
here.

There is also a third type of latency that occurs when trying to use  
analog hardware via inserts to digital recorded tracks - often when  
mixing. TDM will win here - but does this really matter? When mixing I  
don't care how much latency the system runs with just as long as it  
keeps everything in phase accurate time - but that is a function of  
the software, not the hardware.

So there you go. IMO not all latency issues are deal breakers or  
unworkable - so it's much more informative when referring to it to be  
specific. And for the record I don't think there's any TDM sound  
engine or summing benefit over native Logic. If there is a difference  
it comes down to quality of converters and the fact that up until  
about 4-5 years ago there were far more high quality TDM plugins  
available. That's not the case now.

Kind regards

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com




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