RE: ASP dot Net CMS -- I am astounded

Unfortunately, there will always be someone with this type of this
approach, and all I can say is that you need to look at the bigger
picture.

You have to understand, that organizations are different, organizations
have different problems and have to make decisions based on the
problems, technology, cost of implementation, support, etc.

Our decision will be based on the in house skills, total cost of
ownership and features and problems that it can solve, maintenance, and
cost would be the main reasons.

The reason for my initial question on ASP dot Net based CM systems, is
because we believe that we will benefit from the ASP dot Net technology.

MS also has a CM system which does not appear to be suitable for us at
this stage.

Ruben

 

________________________________

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Duthoit
Sent: Thursday, 24 February 2005 05:45
To: 'Paul D. Bain'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [CMS] ASP dot Net CMS -- I am astounded

 

Paul

 

I read this list with interest because it is quite educational and
sometimes amusing. But I have to say your reaction is quite staggering.
The arguments about which platform to use - MS, Linux, J2EE are totally
irrelevant to the client - and that is what matters. We can all generate
endless noise in favour of one platform or another. I think it is a
shame to slag off another member just because he prefers Microsoft. And
a shame to insult fellow members - that is not what this list is about.

 

______________________________________
Paul Duthoit | Managing Director | Netsite Ltd
The Sail & Colour Loft | The Historic Dockyard
Chatham | Kent ME4 4TE | Tel: 01634 880800
www.netsite.co.uk <http://www.netsite.co.uk/>  | www.recruitactive.com
<http://www.recruitactive.com/> 

 

 

________________________________

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul D. Bain
Sent: 22 February 2005 22:29
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [CMS] ASP dot Net CMS -- I am astounded

At 11:18 AM 2/22/2005, John wrote:




This is a valid concern, but I don't see how we get through the real
issues without just starting another religious war.  I have always been
skeptical of Microsoft, inventing the phrase "if you're not actively
against them, you're implicitly with them".  Before picking the CMS with
which I now work I evaluated platforms, primarily J2EE vs. .NET.  One
interesting point was how frank, accurate and open the .NET resources
were about strengths and limitations.  Many of the Java resources were
bitter, inaccurate and biased.  To a large extent perspective on this
issue depends on who one listens to.  The rumblings I hear indicate that
Microsoft sold more server licenses last year than all Unix vendors
combined, that a default Windows Server 2003 installation is more secure
than a typical Linux installation,


        A default Windows Server installation is more secure than a
typical Linux installation? Apparently, the "professionals" on this list
do not want for stupidity.




 and that .NET is a very viable, flexible and high-performance
enterprise development platform.


        Currently, the .Net platform runs only on Windows (Mono is not
yet mature), which owes its continued survival (at least in the server
market) to the fact that most MCSE's are simply too stupid to learn
Linux or *BSD.




  One problem seems to be the lack of success stories in the market
compared to more established platforms.  I also prefer .NET's
documentation and XML "auto"-documentation features.  If you've ever had
to call Microsoft for support (not from a home user perspective, but
from an enterprise), it's a totally different and positive experience.
I remember one CMS vendor telling me the machine was bluescreening
because of OS and hardware issue, and Microsoft telling me "if you
uninstall [that CMS] from that server it will stop bluescreening".  Sure
enough, the bug was with the CMS, but it took months for that vendor to
deal with it.


        In the *nix world, the analog to a BSoD ("Blue Screen of Death")
is called a "kernel panic," which rarely happens these days, at least on
Linux (and I am told that it is even more rare on FreeBSD than on
Linux). Under *nix, your X window server may crash from time to time,
but the kernel generally does not. Furthermore, if X crashes, you can
easily kill it and restart it (from a virtual console, of course). IOW,
in the *nix world, applications almost never cause the operating system
to crash, which happens all too often on M$ Windows.




I think with .NET Microsoft really got something right and it makes
sense to capitalize on their huge research and development budget,
especially in the hopes that Mono on Linux really takes off (this should
probably be a backdoor strategy for all .NET CMS vendors).


        Mono on Linux is not yet mature and is receiving absolutely NO
help from M$.




  Like it or not, Microsoft and .NET are here to stay


        The hell they are. The only thing keeping M$ alive in the server
market is the fact that MCSE's are too stupid to learn Linux and *BSD.
Absolutely NOTHING else. Seven years from now, after the jobs of all of
the MCSE's have been sent offshore, no one in the USA will be installing
new M$ servers. It will be an exclusively *nix world, at least in the
realm of servers.




 and apparently picking up CMS market share as next generation CMS
technology goes mainstream.  I've done large CMS projects with .NET,
Perl and Java and I can say without a doubt that for me, .NET with
Visual Studio allows almost an order of magnitude greater productivity
than the other platforms, and more reliable systems.  For me it is
easier to write new code in C# than port existing C# code to Java
because of simple missing constructs like foreach.  I think J2EE
containers tend to lead to vendor lock-in much like .NET,


        How does using Jakarta Tomcat, Jetty, or JBoss lead to lock-in?




 and I have done enough Perl to know it's not a good candidate for
highly-integrated enterprise solutions.  PHP and Python may be better
candidates, but my experience leads me to believe the open source CMS
products take a lot more heavy lifting and specialized skills.


        Yeah, it would be unfortunate if you had to hire any smart
people. After all, they are expensive and they tend to know more about
network security.




  Not all of us are building systems managed by teams of developers -
many projects are actually delivering on the promise of CMS by putting
control in the hands of the business users.  I think the other tools are
less suited for achieving these goals.  Like most new CMS products, .NET
was built from the ground up around XML - I don't know about Python, but
in Java and Perl XML  [it]  is not nearly as easy.


        Maybe you should take a look at OpenCms, ver. 6, beta 1. It is
based on J2EE and XML. See www.OpenCms.org <http://www.opencms.org/> . 




Mat Griffin wrote: 




Why are there so many blinkered people relying upon Microsoft products?
Trying looking a bit further than just MS.


        It is simple, actually. There are very, very few smart people on
this list. The participants hereon are simply  and completely stupid.
They think that "this Open Source thing is a fad" and that network
security is not something that they should worry about. I have been on
many mailing lists, and I have never seen as much stupidity on a list as
on this one. I am astounded that these morons have jobs.

-- Paul Bain