RE: Looking for discussion - Design contest websites
"Tim Hardy" <[email protected]> Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:26:57 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.hci.experiencedesign |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--ObG-4-2NzXPYzohFnPhrSDcG5QxOZy3veP3UghZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take a look at logotournament.com and how they describe it. All these sites work basically the same, but with some key differences. I know it's starting to sound like I have some sort of stake in them, but I honestly have zero involvement with them. They just have set the bar higher than the others, and I figure that should be the baseline to improve upon. In response to your question though, they suffer the exact same issue. Often, more than ten designers compete in a "contest" and only one gets paid. This should be addressed by at least offering some sort of payout to the second and maybe third place designs. I don't think it's entirely as bad as you describe it though. You're assuming all ten or more designers spend the same amount of time on the contest. From perusing the past contests, it's apparent that there are a lot of drafts submitted, but usually each contest boils down to a few designers tweaking their ideas in order to win. Many of the drafts are just not what the customer is looking for, and the customer says so. Most drop out early if the customer doesn't give positive feedback on the initial idea. Only the winner gives up the rights to their design. I'm not saying it's great. The problem still exists. It's just not quite as bad as many make it out to be. Someone responded to me privately making an analogy to web development. My basic response is that a very similar thing is happening in web development. It's not one-to-one, but the situation is incredibly similar. Technology is producing highly flexible frameworks that non-technical, or less technical people can use to produce what used to require a very experienced web developer to create. Drupal and Wordpress are just two CMSs that eliminate a ton of development work. Even further, look at do-it-yourself sites like www.moonfruit.com and www.homestead.com and hundreds more that eliminate ALL development work! There used to be a ton of good money in writing those sites. Professional landscapes change. Take it from a web developer, complaining about something driving a price down accomplishes nothing. As an aside, I'm no longer going to develop this site (in the near term at least). My financial situation has changed to the point I can work on something I'm much more passionate about and can feel better about (community related). That doesn't change the opinions I've developed in the short time I've spent researching this stuff, however. I haven't mentioned some of my more brilliant ideas regarding this design contest site reform :) but if someone from an existing site we're to get involved in the discussion, I'd probably throw them into the mix. Tim -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gunnar Swanson Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 6:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AIGAExperienceDesign] Looking for discussion - Design contest websites Could you tell us about the business model for the designers? Is this a site where someone, say, wanting a trademark would put out some sort of information and people would design something and then the client would choose one and pay a fee for it? Would the fee paid be much higher than a customary fee for such a job? If ten designers do a job on spec then the "winner" would have to get ten times the normal fee for the 1:10 bet to be worthwhile. Or would someone put out a request and designers would compete based on price? How would this not drive prices way down for any designer involved? Or is there some other plan? Gunnar ---------- Gunnar Swanson Design Office 1901 East 6th Street Greenville, North Carolina 27858 USA [email protected] +1 252 258 7006 at East Carolina University: +1 252 328 2839 [email protected] On Feb 21, 2010, at 3:53 PM, [email protected] wrote: > that does sound interesting > i actually would like to read more on that and other related > discussions on making money as a designer, from such contests. > > > Louis Abbatepaolo > Photography/Graphic Design > 631-864-2494 > [email protected] > http://www.louisabbatepaolo.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Hardy <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 6:04 pm > Subject: [AIGAExperienceDesign] Looking for discussion - Design > contest websites > > > > I'd like to start a pragmatic discussion on what might be done to > bridge the > gap between design contest sites and the concerns raised against them. > > I am a web developer who was recently laid off and I'm considering > creating > a site like crowdspring.com or 99designs.com (actually I think > logotournament.com is the most impressive). I like the idea of a > "design > contest" site from a consumer standpoint, and it's a good choice for > an > income-generating web app due to its simple revenue model. However, it > didn't take much research to discover the controversy over the idea > of > "crowdsourced design" or "spec work". I've spent a lot of time > reading all > the perspectives on this issue, and I'm left with the following > conclusions, > among others: > > * The design contest sites are thriving and growing - evidence of a > huge > consumer demand > * There's a lot of room for improvement as far as raising the > experience for > the designers and the design profession in these sites > > Perhaps I'm naive to think that a site built around the idea of design > contests could make significant progress towards raising the > experience for > both the designer and the design profession, but that's exactly what > I'd > like to discuss with you. I believe that there has to be a way to > create a > "bridge" between the growing consumer driven demand for these sites > and the > defense of a high quality standard for the design profession. > > If anyone would like to begin such a dialogue, I would appreciate the > opportunity. I have several ideas, but I welcome any and all of > yours as > I'm at the very beginning of this project. All I ask is that the > discussion > be open-minded, respectful, and with an eye towards pragmatism. At > the very > least, I see this discussion as surfacing some areas that could > perhaps > "reform" the existing design contest sites to some degree. I'm also > open to > being swayed to the point that I don't want to be involved in > creating such > a site, but I'm hoping that a design contest site driven by your > ideas can > at least push the others to follow suit in a positive direction > (which would > be a good thing). I can't think of any better way to vette ideas > than to > jump into a forum such as this one. > > Thank you for your time and your opinions. > > Tim > > -- > View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Looking-for-discussion---Design-contest-websites-tp276 47264p27647264.html > Sent from the AIGA Experience Design mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > - - - - A I G A E X P E R I E N C E D E S I G N - - - - > > PURPOSE OF THE LIST: The objective of AIGA Experience Design is to > build an > interdisciplinary community of professionals who design for a world > in which > experiences are increasingly digital and connected. This list has been > established as a forum for the exchange of information among > community members. > > TO VIEW ARCHIVED MESSAGES: visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign > > ETIQUETTE: We ask that participants observe common principles of > civility and > e-mail etiquette in their postings. Specifically, it is more > appropriate to > challenge ideas than individuals, and the list should *not* be used > for personal > communications, self-promotion, commercial solicitations or job > postings. > > JOB POSTINGS: Please post job listings on AIGA Design Jobs http://www.aiga.org/designjobs > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send e-mail to [email protected] > > MORE INFORMATION: http://experiencedesign.aiga.org > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > - - - - A I G A E X P E R I E N C E D E S I G N - - - - > > PURPOSE OF THE LIST: The objective of AIGA Experience Design is to > build an interdisciplinary community of professionals who design for > a world in which experiences are increasingly digital and connected. > This list has been established as a forum for the exchange of > information among community members. > > TO VIEW ARCHIVED MESSAGES: visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign > > ETIQUETTE: We ask that participants observe common principles of > civility and e-mail etiquette in their postings. Specifically, it is > more appropriate to challenge ideas than individuals, and the list > should *not* be used for personal communications, self-promotion, > commercial solicitations or job postings. > > JOB POSTINGS: Please post job listings on AIGA Design Jobs http://www.aiga.org/designjobs > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send e-mail to [email protected] > > MORE INFORMATION: http://experiencedesign.aiga.org > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ - - - - A I G A E X P E R I E N C E D E S I G N - - - - PURPOSE OF THE LIST: The objective of AIGA Experience Design is to build an interdisciplinary community of professionals who design for a world in which experiences are increasingly digital and connected. This list has been established as a forum for the exchange of information among community members. TO VIEW ARCHIVED MESSAGES: visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign ETIQUETTE: We ask that participants observe common principles of civility and e-mail etiquette in their postings. Specifically, it is more appropriate to challenge ideas than individuals, and the list should *not* be used for personal communications, self-promotion, commercial solicitations or job postings. JOB POSTINGS: Please post job listings on AIGA Design Jobs http://www.aiga.org/designjobs TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send e-mail to [email protected] MORE INFORMATION: http://experiencedesign.aiga.org Yahoo! Groups Links --ObG-4-2NzXPYzohFnPhrSDcG5QxOZy3veP3UghZ Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Take a look at logotournament.<wbr>com and how they describe it. All these sites<br> work basically the same, but with some key differences. I know it's<br> starting to sound like I have some sort of stake in them, but I honestly<br> have zero involvement with them. They just have set the bar higher than the<br> others, and I figure that should be the baseline to improve upon.<br> <br> In response to your question though, they suffer the exact same issue.<br> Often, more than ten designers compete in a "contest" and only one gets<br> paid. This should be addressed by at least offering some sort of payout to<br> the second and maybe third place designs. I don't think it's entirely as<br> bad as you describe it though. You're assuming all ten or more designers<br> spend the same amount of time on the contest. From perusing the past<br> contests, it's apparent that there are a lot of drafts submitted, but<br> usually each contest boils down to a few designers tweaking their ideas in<br> order to win. Many of the drafts are just not what the customer is looking<br> for, and the customer says so. Most drop out early if the customer doesn't<br> give positive feedback on the initial idea. Only the winner gives up the<br> rights to their design. I'm not saying it's great. The problem still<br> exists. It's just not quite as bad as many make it out to be.<br> <br> Someone responded to me privately making an analogy to web development. My<br> basic response is that a very similar thing is happening in web development.<br> It's not one-to-one, but the situation is incredibly similar. Technology is<br> producing highly flexible frameworks that non-technical, or less technical<br> people can use to produce what used to require a very experienced web<br> developer to create. Drupal and Wordpress are just two CMSs that eliminate<br> a ton of development work. Even further, look at do-it-yourself sites like<br> www.moonfruit.<wbr>com and www.homestead.<wbr>com and hundreds more that eliminate ALL<br> development work! There used to be a ton of good money in writing those<br> sites.<br> <br> Professional landscapes change. Take it from a web developer, complaining<br> about something driving a price down accomplishes nothing. <br> <br> As an aside, I'm no longer going to develop this site (in the near term at<br> least). My financial situation has changed to the point I can work on<br> something I'm much more passionate about and can feel better about<br> (community related). That doesn't change the opinions I've developed in the<br> short time I've spent researching this stuff, however. I haven't mentioned<br> some of my more brilliant ideas regarding this design contest site reform :)<br> but if someone from an existing site we're to get involved in the<br> discussion, I'd probably throw them into the mix.<br> <br> Tim<br> <br> -----Original Message-----<br> From: <a href="mailto:AIGAExperienceDesign%40yahoogroups.com">AIGAExperienceDesig<wbr>n@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br> [mailto:<a href="mailto:AIGAExperienceDesign%40yahoogroups.com">AIGAExperienceDesig<wbr>n@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>] On Behalf Of Gunnar Swanson<br> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 6:08 PM<br> To: <a href="mailto:AIGAExperienceDesign%40yahoogroups.com">AIGAExperienceDesig<wbr>n@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br> Subject: Re: [AIGAExperienceDesi<wbr>gn] Looking for discussion - Design contest<br> websites<br> <br> Could you tell us about the business model for the designers?<br> <br> Is this a site where someone, say, wanting a trademark would put out <br> some sort of information and people would design something and then <br> the client would choose one and pay a fee for it?<br> <br> Would the fee paid be much higher than a customary fee for such a job? <br> If ten designers do a job on spec then the "winner" would have to get <br> ten times the normal fee for the 1:10 bet to be worthwhile.<br> <br> Or would someone put out a request and designers would compete based <br> on price? How would this not drive prices way down for any designer <br> involved?<br> <br> Or is there some other plan?<br> <br> Gunnar<br> <br> ----------<br> <br> Gunnar Swanson Design Office<br> <br> 1901 East 6th Street<br> <br> Greenville, North Carolina 27858<br> <br> USA<br> <br> <a href="mailto:gunnar%40gunnarswanson.com">gunnar@gunnarswanso<wbr>n.com</a><br> <br> +1 252 258 7006<br> <br> at East Carolina University:<br> <br> +1 252 328 2839<br> <br> <a href="mailto:swansong%40ecu.edu">swansong@ecu.<wbr>edu</a><br> <br> On Feb 21, 2010, at 3:53 PM, <a href="mailto:LNC15%40aol.com">[email protected]</a> wrote:<br> <br> > that does sound interesting<br> > i actually would like to read more on that and other related <br> > discussions on making money as a designer, from such contests.<br> ><br> ><br> > Louis Abbatepaolo<br> > Photography/<wbr>Graphic Design<br> > 631-864-2494<br> > <a href="mailto:LNC15%40aol.com">[email protected]</a><br> > <a href="http://www.louisabbatepaolo.com">http://www.louisabb<wbr>atepaolo.<wbr>com</a><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > -----Original Message-----<br> > From: Tim Hardy <<a href="mailto:tim.hardy%40omegacreations.com">tim.hardy@omegacrea<wbr>tions.com</a>><br> > To: <a href="mailto:AIGAExperienceDesign%40yahoogroups.com">AIGAExperienceDesig<wbr>n@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br> > Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2010 6:04 pm<br> > Subject: [AIGAExperienceDesi<wbr>gn] Looking for discussion - Design <br> > contest websites<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > I'd like to start a pragmatic discussion on what might be done to <br> > bridge the<br> > gap between design contest sites and the concerns raised against them.<br> ><br> > I am a web developer who was recently laid off and I'm considering <br> > creating<br> > a site like crowdspring.<wbr>com or 99designs.com (actually I think<br> > logotournament.<wbr>com is the most impressive). I like the idea of a <br> > "design<br> > contest" site from a consumer standpoint, and it's a good choice for <br> > an<br> > income-generating web app due to its simple revenue model. However, it<br> > didn't take much research to discover the controversy over the idea <br> > of<br> > "crowdsourced design" or "spec work". I've spent a lot of time <br> > reading all<br> > the perspectives on this issue, and I'm left with the following <br> > conclusions,<br> > among others:<br> ><br> > * The design contest sites are thriving and growing - evidence of a <br> > huge<br> > consumer demand<br> > * There's a lot of room for improvement as far as raising the <br> > experience for<br> > the designers and the design profession in these sites<br> ><br> > Perhaps I'm naive to think that a site built around the idea of design<br> > contests could make significant progress towards raising the <br> > experience for<br> > both the designer and the design profession, but that's exactly what <br> > I'd<br> > like to discuss with you. I believe that there has to be a way to <br> > create a<br> > "bridge" between the growing consumer driven demand for these sites <br> > and the<br> > defense of a high quality standard for the design profession.<br> ><br> > If anyone would like to begin such a dialogue, I would appreciate the<br> > opportunity. I have several ideas, but I welcome any and all of <br> > yours as<br> > I'm at the very beginning of this project. All I ask is that the <br> > discussion<br> > be open-minded, respectful, and with an eye towards pragmatism. At <br> > the very<br> > least, I see this discussion as surfacing some areas that could <br> > perhaps<br> > "reform" the existing design contest sites to some degree. I'm also <br> > open to<br> > being swayed to the point that I don't want to be involved in <br> > creating such<br> > a site, but I'm hoping that a design contest site driven by your <br> > ideas can<br> > at least push the others to follow suit in a positive direction <br> > (which would<br> > be a good thing). I can't think of any better way to vette ideas <br> > than to<br> > jump into a forum such as this one.<br> ><br> > Thank you for your time and your opinions.<br> ><br> > Tim<br> ><br> > -- <br> > View this message in context:<br> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/Looking-for-discussion---Design-contest-websites-tp276">http://old.nabble.<wbr>com/Looking-<wbr>for-discussion-<wbr>--Design-<wbr>contest-websites<wbr>-tp276</a><br> 47264p27647264.<wbr>html<br> > Sent from the AIGA Experience Design mailing list archive at <br> > Nabble.com.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > ------------<wbr>---------<wbr>---------<wbr>------<br> ><br> > - - - - A I G A E X P E R I E N C E D E S I G N - - - -<br> ><br> > PURPOSE OF THE LIST: The objective of AIGA Experience Design is to <br> > build an<br> > interdisciplinary community of professionals who design for a world <br> > in which<br> > experiences are increasingly digital and connected. This list has been<br> > established as a forum for the exchange of information among <br> > community members.<br> ><br> > TO VIEW ARCHIVED MESSAGES: visit<br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign">http://groups.<wbr>yahoo.com/<wbr>group/AIGAExperi<wbr>enceDesign</a><br> ><br> > ETIQUETTE: We ask that participants observe common principles of <br> > civility and<br> > e-mail etiquette in their postings. Specifically, it is more <br> > appropriate to<br> > challenge ideas than individuals, and the list should *not* be used <br> > for personal<br> > communications, self-promotion, commercial solicitations or job <br> > postings.<br> ><br> > JOB POSTINGS: Please post job listings on AIGA Design Jobs<br> <a href="http://www.aiga.org/designjobs">http://www.aiga.<wbr>org/designjobs</a><br> ><br> > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send e-mail to<br> <a href="mailto:AIGEExperienceDesign-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com">AIGEExperienceDesig<wbr>n-unsubscribe@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br> ><br> > MORE INFORMATION: <a href="http://experiencedesign.aiga.org">http://experiencede<wbr>sign.aiga.<wbr>org</a><br> > Yahoo! Groups Links<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > ------------<wbr>---------<wbr>---------<wbr>------<br> ><br> > - - - - A I G A E X P E R I E N C E D E S I G N - - - -<br> ><br> > PURPOSE OF THE LIST: The objective of AIGA Experience Design is to <br> > build an interdisciplinary community of professionals who design for <br> > a world in which experiences are increasingly digital and connected. <br> > This list has been established as a forum for the exchange of <br> > information among community members.<br> ><br> > TO VIEW ARCHIVED MESSAGES: visit<br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign">http://groups.<wbr>yahoo.com/<wbr>group/AIGAExperi<wbr>enceDesign</a><br> ><br> > ETIQUETTE: We ask that participants observe common principles of <br> > civility and e-mail etiquette in their postings. Specifically, it is <br> > more appropriate to challenge ideas than individuals, and the list <br> > should *not* be used for personal communications, self-promotion, <br> > commercial solicitations or job postings.<br> ><br> > JOB POSTINGS: Please post job listings on AIGA Design Jobs<br> <a href="http://www.aiga.org/designjobs">http://www.aiga.<wbr>org/designjobs</a><br> ><br> > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send e-mail to<br> <a href="mailto:AIGEExperienceDesign-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com">AIGEExperienceDesig<wbr>n-unsubscribe@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br> ><br> > MORE INFORMATION: <a href="http://experiencedesign.aiga.org">http://experiencede<wbr>sign.aiga.<wbr>org</a><br> > Yahoo! Groups Links<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> ------------<wbr>---------<wbr>---------<wbr>------<br> <br> - - - - A I G A E X P E R I E N C E D E S I G N - - - -<br> <br> PURPOSE OF THE LIST: The objective of AIGA Experience Design is to build an<br> interdisciplinary community of professionals who design for a world in which<br> experiences are increasingly digital and connected. This list has been<br> established as a forum for the exchange of information among community<br> members.<br> <br> TO VIEW ARCHIVED MESSAGES: visit<br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign">http://groups.<wbr>yahoo.com/<wbr>group/AIGAExperi<wbr>enceDesign</a><br> <br> ETIQUETTE: We ask that participants observe common principles of civility<br> and e-mail etiquette in their postings. Specifically, it is more appropriate<br> to challenge ideas than individuals, and the list should *not* be used for<br> personal communications, self-promotion, commercial solicitations or job<br> postings.<br> <br> JOB POSTINGS: Please post job listings on AIGA Design Jobs<br> <a href="http://www.aiga.org/designjobs">http://www.aiga.<wbr>org/designjobs</a><br> <br> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send e-mail to<br> <a href="mailto:AIGEExperienceDesign-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com">AIGEExperienceDesig<wbr>n-unsubscribe@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br> <br> MORE INFORMATION: <a href="http://experiencedesign.aiga.org">http://experiencede<wbr>sign.aiga.<wbr>org</a><br> Yahoo! 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