Re: Looking for discussion - Design contest websites
Gunnar Swanson <[email protected]> Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:27:15 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.hci.experiencedesign |
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--e769KzW79odsA6ucDGkelZjlGBrZtiahpguTMD1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, Do not expect to convince a group of professional designers that this is a good idea because, to put it simply, it is not. In your other email you say that ten people compete. That means that your $250 fee is worth $25. You cannot run a design business with a billing rate of $25 an hour and stay in business so you would have to be producing, what, ten logos a day--day in and day out--to make a long term living at it. These things may be, as you say, unstoppable but they will never be a model for a sustainable design business without a radical change of price structure. If people were paying many thousands of dollars on these sites, why wouldn't they just deal with a real designer? Gunnar Gunnar Swanson ---------- Gunnar Swanson Design Office 1091 East 6th Street Greenville NC 27858 USA [email protected] +1 252 258 7006 www.gunnarswanson.com at East Carolina University: [email protected] +1 252 328 2839 On Feb 25, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Tim Hardy wrote: > I received a response or two via email that I'd like to respond to > via the > list, just so I don't have to write the same thing multiple times and > everyone can benefit from the conversation. I'll omit one of the > author's > original text out of respect, but they were diplomatic with a common > question. "Why do you want to do this?" (paraphrased). There was > also some > comments about how bad 99designs.com is, which I agree with. > > > > I'm not even looking at 99designs.com for insight because they > frankly are > the worst to designers. I'm not sure why any designers participate > in that > site. Take a look at logotournament.com instead. I think they treat > designers the best and I would be looking to improve on what they've > done. > Here are a few highlights: > > . They have a minimum price of $250 > > . They require the money up front, so no one gets stiffed. > Any > logos not selected remain the property of the designer. > > . I don't think anyone would take an idea from > logotournament and > have someone else redo it because they've already paid for it once > and. > > . The community is empowered to find and punish any abuse. > Designers get banned for copying, and it's all handled > democratically (jury > of peers and all that). That doesn't mean that an unethical customer > couldn't take the idea to another site, but I don't see why they > would, > since they've already paid for it once and the original designer > could alter > it easiest. > > . Logotournament also makes it easier to connect winning > designers > with customers. I think they hook you up after winning, unlike the > other > sites. If they don't, then this is something I would definitely do. > This > makes follow on work a real possibility, whereas sites like > crowdspring lock > their designers down (you have to do everything through them). > > . They are making it increasingly difficult for designers to > join, > demanding proof of some skill and/or track record. (Must present a > portfolio, take a quiz, answer some questions, then get voted in by > the > existing community). I think Logotournament is the first of these > sites to > really understand crowdsourcing. If you're going to leverage any > power of > the crowd, you have to let the crowd manage itself. > > > > As to why I'm even considering making a site like this. I'm > conviced that > design contests are growing. No matter what anyone thinks about > them, they > are gaining a lot of ground and there are two things that can happen: > > . Designers can argue against the concept and do very little > to > alter the outcome > > . They can take steps to influence and turn the flood in a > better > direction. (I'm not saying the arguments haven't made some positive > impact > - they have, but it's not going away and there are no designers > talking > about how it should be ALTERED instead of stopped) > > > > I firmly believe in the first statement because all economic change is > fueled by the consumer - the source of the money in this instance. > Consumers are falling over themselves to spend money on these sites > and the > supply of the designers willing to work on them is not diminishing - > it's > growing. I agree with you on many points, but I think history is > going to > look back on this movement dispassionately and simply state that it > happened. There was a void not being filled in the design > community, and > technology facilitated a new way for people to get low-cost design (or > perhaps "commercial art", which is probably a more accurate > description of > what is being sold on these sites). > > > > Here are a couple improvements I see that can possibly be made: > > . For starters, giving at least some payout to more than > just the > winner. At a minimum the second place, and maybe even the third place > designer should get something, since the entire draw of these > "contests" is > the diversity of input received in each contest. > > . Full community management (logotournament does a pretty > good job > of this already). Members are incentivized to find and stamp out > copyright > infringement. They call it "Logo court" and juries are held to > examine and > decide on each accusation. Designers can be banned. I would argue > that a > thousands-strong incentivized community can do a much better job of > policing > copyright issues than the majority of small design firms that exist > today. > This is the real strength of crowdsourcing - a large community > motivated to > do something valuable. > > > > I'm still not convinced that I'm going to build this site, but I > honestly > think the design community would be better off it focused more > attention on > reforming these sites instead of ignoring them. I don't think > they're going > to stop. > > > > Tim > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > - - - - A I G A E X P E R I E N C E D E S I G N - - - - > > PURPOSE OF THE LIST: The objective of AIGA Experience Design is to > build an interdisciplinary community of professionals who design for > a world in which experiences are increasingly digital and connected. > This list has been established as a forum for the exchange of > information among community members. > > TO VIEW ARCHIVED MESSAGES: visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign > > ETIQUETTE: We ask that participants observe common principles of > civility and e-mail etiquette in their postings. Specifically, it is > more appropriate to challenge ideas than individuals, and the list > should *not* be used for personal communications, self-promotion, > commercial solicitations or job postings. > > JOB POSTINGS: Please post job listings on AIGA Design Jobs http://www.aiga.org/designjobs > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send e-mail to [email protected] > > MORE INFORMATION: http://experiencedesign.aiga.org > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > --e769KzW79odsA6ucDGkelZjlGBrZtiahpguTMD1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Tim,<br> <br> Do not expect to convince a group of professional designers that this <br> is a good idea because, to put it simply, it is not. In your other <br> email you say that ten people compete. That means that your $250 fee <br> is worth $25. You cannot run a design business with a billing rate of <br> $25 an hour and stay in business so you would have to be producing, <br> what, ten logos a day--day in and day out--to make a long term living <br> at it.<br> <br> These things may be, as you say, unstoppable but they will never be a <br> model for a sustainable design business without a radical change of <br> price structure. If people were paying many thousands of dollars on <br> these sites, why wouldn't they just deal with a real designer?<br> <br> Gunnar<br> <br> Gunnar Swanson<br> ----------<br> Gunnar Swanson Design Office<br> 1091 East 6th Street<br> Greenville NC 27858<br> USA<br> <br> <a href="mailto:gunnar%40gunnarswanson.com">gunnar@gunnarswanso<wbr>n.com</a><br> +1 252 258 7006<br> <br> www.gunnarswanson.<wbr>com<br> <br> at East Carolina University:<br> <a href="mailto:swansong%40ecu.edu">swansong@ecu.<wbr>edu</a><br> +1 252 328 2839<br> <br> On Feb 25, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Tim Hardy wrote:<br> <br> > I received a response or two via email that I'd like to respond to <br> > via the<br> > list, just so I don't have to write the same thing multiple times and<br> > everyone can benefit from the conversation. I'll omit one of the <br> > author's<br> > original text out of respect, but they were diplomatic with a common<br> > question. "Why do you want to do this?" (paraphrased)<wbr>. There was <br> > also some<br> > comments about how bad 99designs.com is, which I agree with.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > I'm not even looking at 99designs.com for insight because they <br> > frankly are<br> > the worst to designers. I'm not sure why any designers participate <br> > in that<br> > site. Take a look at logotournament.<wbr>com instead. I think they treat<br> > designers the best and I would be looking to improve on what they've <br> > done.<br> > Here are a few highlights:<br> ><br> > . They have a minimum price of $250<br> ><br> > . They require the money up front, so no one gets stiffed. <br> > Any<br> > logos not selected remain the property of the designer.<br> ><br> > . I don't think anyone would take an idea from <br> > logotournament and<br> > have someone else redo it because they've already paid for it once <br> > and.<br> ><br> > . The community is empowered to find and punish any abuse.<br> > Designers get banned for copying, and it's all handled <br> > democratically (jury<br> > of peers and all that). That doesn't mean that an unethical customer<br> > couldn't take the idea to another site, but I don't see why they <br> > would,<br> > since they've already paid for it once and the original designer <br> > could alter<br> > it easiest.<br> ><br> > . Logotournament also makes it easier to connect winning <br> > designers<br> > with customers. I think they hook you up after winning, unlike the <br> > other<br> > sites. If they don't, then this is something I would definitely do. <br> > This<br> > makes follow on work a real possibility, whereas sites like <br> > crowdspring lock<br> > their designers down (you have to do everything through them).<br> ><br> > . They are making it increasingly difficult for designers to <br> > join,<br> > demanding proof of some skill and/or track record. (Must present a<br> > portfolio, take a quiz, answer some questions, then get voted in by <br> > the<br> > existing community). I think Logotournament is the first of these <br> > sites to<br> > really understand crowdsourcing. If you're going to leverage any <br> > power of<br> > the crowd, you have to let the crowd manage itself.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > As to why I'm even considering making a site like this. I'm <br> > conviced that<br> > design contests are growing. No matter what anyone thinks about <br> > them, they<br> > are gaining a lot of ground and there are two things that can happen:<br> ><br> > . Designers can argue against the concept and do very little <br> > to<br> > alter the outcome<br> ><br> > . They can take steps to influence and turn the flood in a <br> > better<br> > direction. (I'm not saying the arguments haven't made some positive <br> > impact<br> > - they have, but it's not going away and there are no designers <br> > talking<br> > about how it should be ALTERED instead of stopped)<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > I firmly believe in the first statement because all economic change is<br> > fueled by the consumer - the source of the money in this instance.<br> > Consumers are falling over themselves to spend money on these sites <br> > and the<br> > supply of the designers willing to work on them is not diminishing - <br> > it's<br> > growing. I agree with you on many points, but I think history is <br> > going to<br> > look back on this movement dispassionately and simply state that it<br> > happened. There was a void not being filled in the design <br> > community, and<br> > technology facilitated a new way for people to get low-cost design (or<br> > perhaps "commercial art", which is probably a more accurate <br> > description of<br> > what is being sold on these sites).<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > Here are a couple improvements I see that can possibly be made:<br> ><br> > . For starters, giving at least some payout to more than <br> > just the<br> > winner. At a minimum the second place, and maybe even the third place<br> > designer should get something, since the entire draw of these <br> > "contests" is<br> > the diversity of input received in each contest.<br> ><br> > . Full community management (logotournament does a pretty <br> > good job<br> > of this already). Members are incentivized to find and stamp out <br> > copyright<br> > infringement. They call it "Logo court" and juries are held to <br> > examine and<br> > decide on each accusation. Designers can be banned. I would argue <br> > that a<br> > thousands-strong incentivized community can do a much better job of <br> > policing<br> > copyright issues than the majority of small design firms that exist <br> > today.<br> > This is the real strength of crowdsourcing - a large community <br> > motivated to<br> > do something valuable.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > I'm still not convinced that I'm going to build this site, but I <br> > honestly<br> > think the design community would be better off it focused more <br> > attention on<br> > reforming these sites instead of ignoring them. I don't think <br> > they're going<br> > to stop.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > Tim<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > ------------<wbr>---------<wbr>---------<wbr>------<br> ><br> > - - - - A I G A E X P E R I E N C E D E S I G N - - - -<br> ><br> > PURPOSE OF THE LIST: The objective of AIGA Experience Design is to <br> > build an interdisciplinary community of professionals who design for <br> > a world in which experiences are increasingly digital and connected. <br> > This list has been established as a forum for the exchange of <br> > information among community members.<br> ><br> > TO VIEW ARCHIVED MESSAGES: visit <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign">http://groups.<wbr>yahoo.com/<wbr>group/AIGAExperi<wbr>enceDesign</a><br> ><br> > ETIQUETTE: We ask that participants observe common principles of <br> > civility and e-mail etiquette in their postings. Specifically, it is <br> > more appropriate to challenge ideas than individuals, and the list <br> > should *not* be used for personal communications, self-promotion, <br> > commercial solicitations or job postings.<br> ><br> > JOB POSTINGS: Please post job listings on AIGA Design Jobs <a href="http://www.aiga.org/designjobs">http://www.aiga.<wbr>org/designjobs</a><br> ><br> > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send e-mail to <a href="mailto:AIGEExperienceDesign-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com">AIGEExperienceDesig<wbr>n-unsubscribe@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a><br> ><br> > MORE INFORMATION: <a href="http://experiencedesign.aiga.org">http://experiencede<wbr>sign.aiga.<wbr>org</a><br> > Yahoo! Groups Links<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:?subject=Re: [AIGAExperienceDesign] Looking for discussion - Design contest websites"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re: [AIGAExperienceDesign] Looking for discussion - Design contest websites"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign/message/3099;_ylc=X3oDMTM0Z2t1cmM0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjAwNTIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDIzODUxBG1zZ0lkAzMxMDYEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjY3NDYwNjEyBHRwY0lkAzMwOTk-">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">6</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaXJrMml0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjAwNTIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDIzODUxBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTI2NzQ2MDYxMg--" style="border-right: 1px solid #000; padding-right: 5px; margin-right: 2px; text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AIGAExperienceDesign/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHAwcDcyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjAwNTIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDIzODUxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI2NzQ2MDYxMg--" style="font-weight: 700; text-decoration: none;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> </div> <div id="ygrp-grfd" style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px; padding: 15px 0;"> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> - - - - A I G A E X P E R I E N C E D E S I G N - - - -<BR> <BR> PURPOSE OF THE LIST: The objective of AIGA Experience Design is to build an interdisciplinary community of professionals who design for a world in which experiences are increasingly digital and connected. 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