Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"R Dymond" <[email protected]> Fri, 6 Dec 2019 12:43:26 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CANOj=qMaYKyrOqvtXNs6HEd4=SEf3OwkEpCp3=JppvKP0+a1jg@mail.gmail.com> |
--00000000000022216b05990e43fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Agreed James. I would be much more comfortable mandating test automation, otherwise as you said a lot of cost for manual work is incurred... and isnt the business reason for software development often about eliminating manual tedious work with automation? Also comfortable mandating Agile since it lowers the risk of loss in product development. I would rather have people build their skills in a way that mixes curiosity and mentorship. Having a culture of encouragement and leadership that values these ideas seems a better way to engage the interested. This is where celebrity devs could increase broad interest. On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 12:11 PM James Grenning <[email protected]> wrote: > Mandating TDD would be like mandating that all shots in pool be bank > shots. Unless someone had the skill in bank shots, not many balks will be > pocketed. > > TDD and bank shots require skill to execute. Skills take time to learn. > > Mandating test automation is a business decision, as the cost of manual > retest is so high. There are skills to learn here too, though maybe less > difficult to get started. > > James > > On Dec 6, 2019 at 9:37 AM, R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 8:01 AM Eb Alson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Under what circumstances should a leader impose any of these practices? >> > > I think that was his question as well. > > >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:58 AM R Dymond <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> CNCF is really impressive. That growth! It is underwritten by linux >>> foundation and google. >>> >>> I was discussing TDD with a leader in a software company that just >>> closed a $40M round and expects to grow from 19 to 40 teams. He said they >>> have some teams who do TDD and pairing all the time, some who do it only on >>> harder stuff and some who do not. They have some former thoughtworks alumni >>> and many junior staff, and given the difficulty of recruiting senior staff >>> in their location they expect many of their new hires to be 0 to 3 years of >>> experience. >>> >>> He has had the experience of being in company where they mandated TDD >>> and pairing, then had some people leave and other people who wanted to work >>> that way join. >>> >>> So it is a puzzle to him as well. He doesn't feel he can mandate it at >>> this point, and also he would prefer pull to push. >>> >>> Robin Dymond, CST >>> Managing Partner, Innovel >>> www.innovel.net >>> www.scrumtraining.com >>> Direct: (804) 239-4329 >>> twitter: @robindymond >>> Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 7:13 AM Ron Jeffries <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi ... >>>> >>>> sent from iPad, probably via Mars. Errors, if any, are not mine. >>>> [email protected] is a better address for me, maybe. >>>> >>>> > On Dec 5, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev= >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > There may be many more ways to accomplish this without doing it Scrum >>>> way. Just a few initial ideas: >>>> > >>>> > 1. Textbooks combined with guided self-study. >>>> > 2. Udemy/Cousera/Youtube video courses. >>>> > 3. Reference cards to be given to new hires ("This is how we do it >>>> here"). >>>> > 4. Continuous stream of talks at conferences and meetups. >>>> > 5. Magazine articles. >>>> > 6. Study groups. >>>> > 5. A mobile app with references. >>>> > >>>> > What else? >>>> >>>> Yes I think there are ways like that, and they are needed. I believe >>>> that the price has to be low enough that developers themselves will pay it >>>> if need be. This makes me think that, in early days at least, until volumes >>>> come up -- if they do -- the creation of these things needs to be >>>> underweritten. >>>> >>>> R >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >> blog: http://eikonne.wordpress.com >> LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne >> twitter: @eikonne >> >> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160465): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/message/160465 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- --00000000000022216b05990e43fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Agreed James. I w= ould be much more comfortable mandating test automation, otherwise as you s= aid a lot of cost for manual work is incurred... and isnt the business reas= on for software development often about eliminating manual tedious work wit= h automation?</div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto"><br= ></div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto">Also comfortabl= e mandating Agile since it lowers the risk of loss in product development.<= /div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div da= ta-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto">I would rather have people bu= ild their skills in a way that mixes curiosity and mentorship. Having a cul= ture of encouragement and leadership that values these ideas seems a better= way to engage the interested. This is where celebrity devs could increase = broad interest.</div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto"><= br></div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto"><br></div></d= iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On = Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 12:11 PM James Grenning <<a href=3D"mailto:james@wingm= an-sw.com">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad= ding-left:1ex"><div id=3D"m_-4709423087409340980edo-message"><div>Mandating= TDD would be like mandating that all shots in pool be bank shots.=C2=A0 Un= less someone had the skill in bank shots,=C2=A0 not many balks will be pock= eted.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>TDD and bank shots require skill to ex= ecute.=C2=A0 Skills take time to learn.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Mand= ating test automation is a business decision, as the cost of manual retest = is so high. There are skills to learn here too, though maybe less difficult= to get started.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>James<div id=3D"m_-47094230= 87409340980edo-signature"></div></div><div><br></div></div><div id=3D"m_-47= 09423087409340980edo-original"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div id=3D"m_= -4709423087409340980edo-meta">On Dec 6, 2019 at 9:37 AM, R Dymond <<a hr= ef=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">rdym= [email protected]</a>> wrote: <br><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br= ><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, D= ec 6, 2019, 8:01 AM Eb Alson <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target= = =3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><b= lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px = #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">Under what circumstance= s should a leader impose any of these practices?</div></div></blockquote></= div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I think that was hi= s question as well.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div= class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 = 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br><div class= =3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019= at 9:58 AM R Dymond <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"nore= ferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br>= </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">CNCF is really impre= ssive. That growth! It is underwritten by linux foundation and google.<div = dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I was discussing TDD with a leader= in a software company that just closed a $40M round and expects to grow fr= om 19 to 40 teams. He said they have some teams who do TDD and pairing all = the time, some who do it only on harder stuff and some who do not. They hav= e some former thoughtworks alumni and many junior staff, and given the diff= iculty of recruiting senior staff in their location they expect many of the= ir new hires to be 0 to 3 years of experience.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><= /div><div dir=3D"auto">He has had the experience of being in company where = they mandated TDD and pairing, then had some people leave and other people = who wanted to work that way join.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir= = =3D"auto">So it is a puzzle to him as well. He doesn't feel he can man= date it at this=C2=A0point, and also he would prefer pull to push.<br><br><= div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto">Robin Dymond, CST<br>Ma= naging Partner, Innovel<br><a href=3D"http://www.innovel.net" rel=3D"norefe= rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">www.innovel.net</a><br><a href=3D"http:/= /www.scrumtraining.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">www= .scrumtraining.com</a><br>Direct: (804) 239-4329<br>twitter: @robindymond<b= r>Linkedin:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond" rel=3D= "noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/robin= dymond</a></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"= class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 7:13 AM Ron Jeffries <<a href= = =3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target= =3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote c= lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;= padding-left:1ex">Hi ...<br> <br> sent from iPad, probably via Mars. Errors, if any, are not mine.<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer norefe= rrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> is a better address for me,= maybe.<br> <br> > On Dec 5, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev= =3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer nor= eferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > There may be many more ways to accomplish this without doing it Scrum= way. Just a few initial ideas:<br> > <br> > 1. Textbooks combined with guided self-study.<br> > 2. Udemy/Cousera/Youtube video courses.<br> > 3. Reference cards to be given to new hires ("This is how we do = it here").<br> > 4. Continuous stream of talks at conferences and meetups.<br> > 5. Magazine articles.<br> > 6. Study groups.<br> > 5. A mobile app with references.<br> > <br> > What else?<br> <br> Yes I think there are ways like that, and they are needed. I believe that = the price has to be low enough that developers themselves will pay it if ne= ed be. This makes me think that, in early days at least, until volumes come= up -- if they do -- the creation of these things needs to be underweritten= .<br> <br> R<br> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" data-smartm= ail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>blog: <a href=3D"http://= eikonne.wordpress.com/" rel=3D"me nofollow noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D= "_blank">http://eikonne.wordpress.com</a></div><div>LinkedIn: <a href=3D"ht= tp://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target= =3D"_blank">http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne</a></div> <div>twitter: @eikonne</div></div></div></div> <p></p><p></p></blockquote></div></div></div> <br></blockquote></div></div> </p></p></blockquote></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160465">View/Reply Online (#160465)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DPr= ivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20fo= r%20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --00000000000022216b05990e43fc--