Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io" <[email protected]> Fri, 6 Dec 2019 11:47:10 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
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--Apple-Mail=_4C3B614A-02A2-4393-A7A6-F8CB2F9E6E53 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Imposing best practices may be needed to get things done. For example: - The quality may not be where it should be. Add unit testing and TDD. - The team is overworked. Add planning game. - Projects are late. Add CI. Etc... I stopped believing in team's self-organization long ago. There are lumina= ries like XP founders. There are amazing individuals who can do it and and = I worked with them. Those usually make up 5-10% of them team. The rest req= uires couching, education, encouragement, pushing forward and yes, imposing= and enforcing best practices because were are paid for getting stuff done = in time and with quality. Without imposing, as harsh as this word can be, t= eams descent to run-as-they can 80 hour weeks...=20 Slava > On Dec 6, 2019, at 11:31 AM, Eb Alson <[email protected]> wrote: >=20 > Sorry don=E2=80=99t understand. >=20 > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 2:19 PM Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev=3Dya= [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >=20 >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 7:01 AM, Eb Alson <[email protected] <mailto:amaeze@g= mail.com>> wrote: >>=20 >> Under what circumstances should a leader impose any of these practices? >=20 > How about needing to have things done? >=20 > Slava >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:58 AM R Dymond <[email protected] <mailto:rd= [email protected]>> wrote: >> CNCF is really impressive. That growth! It is underwritten by linux fou= ndation and google. >>=20 >> I was discussing TDD with a leader in a software company that just clos= ed a $40M round and expects to grow from 19 to 40 teams. He said they have = some teams who do TDD and pairing all the time, some who do it only on hard= er stuff and some who do not. They have some former thoughtworks alumni and= many junior staff, and given the difficulty of recruiting senior staff in = their location they expect many of their new hires to be 0 to 3 years of ex= perience. >>=20 >> He has had the experience of being in company where they mandated TDD a= nd pairing, then had some people leave and other people who wanted to work = that way join. >>=20 >> So it is a puzzle to him as well. He doesn't feel he can mandate it at = this point, and also he would prefer pull to push. >>=20 >> Robin Dymond, CST >> Managing Partner, Innovel >> www.innovel.net <http://www.innovel.net/> >> www.scrumtraining.com <http://www.scrumtraining.com/> >> Direct: (804) 239-4329 >> twitter: @robindymond >> Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond <https://www.linkedin= .com/in/robindymond> >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 7:13 AM Ron Jeffries <[email protected] <ma= ilto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Hi ... >>=20 >> sent from iPad, probably via Mars. Errors, if any, are not mine. >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> is a better address fo= r me, maybe. >>=20 >> > On Dec 5, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev=3Dya= [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >=20 >> > There may be many more ways to accomplish this without doing it Scrum= way. Just a few initial ideas: >> >=20 >> > 1. Textbooks combined with guided self-study. >> > 2. Udemy/Cousera/Youtube video courses. >> > 3. Reference cards to be given to new hires ("This is how we do it he= re"). >> > 4. Continuous stream of talks at conferences and meetups. >> > 5. Magazine articles. >> > 6. Study groups. >> > 5. A mobile app with references. >> >=20 >> > What else? >>=20 >> Yes I think there are ways like that, and they are needed. I believe th= at the price has to be low enough that developers themselves will pay it if= need be. This makes me think that, in early days at least, until volumes c= ome up -- if they do -- the creation of these things needs to be underwerit= ten. >>=20 >> R >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >> --=20 >> blog: http://eikonne.wordpress.com <http://eikonne.wordpress.com/> >> LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne <http://linkedin.com/i= n/ebenezer-ikonne> >> twitter: @eikonne >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > blog: http://eikonne.wordpress.com <http://eikonne.wordpress.com/> > LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne <http://linkedin.com/in= /ebenezer-ikonne> > twitter: @eikonne >=20 -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160466): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160466 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/61983806= 5/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- --Apple-Mail=_4C3B614A-02A2-4393-A7A6-F8CB2F9E6E53 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset= =3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: = space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Imposing best pra= ctices may be needed to get things done. For example:<div class=3D""><br cl= ass=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- The quality may not be where it should be.= Add unit testing and TDD.</div><div class=3D"">- The team is overworked. A= dd planning game.</div><div class=3D"">- Projects are late. Add CI.</div><d= iv class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Etc...</div><div class= =3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I stopped believing in team's s= elf-organization long ago. There are luminaries like XP founders. There are= amazing individuals who can do it and and I worked with them. Those = usually make up 5-10% of them team. The rest requires couching, education, = encouragement, pushing forward and yes, imposing and enforcing best practic= es because were are paid for getting stuff done in time and with quality. W= ithout imposing, as harsh as this word can be, teams descent to run-as-they= can 80 hour weeks... </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Slava</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">= <div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Dec 6, 2019, a= t 11:31 AM, Eb Alson <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" class=3D"">ama= [email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><= div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Sorry don=E2=80= = =99t understand.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"g= mail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 2:= 19 PM Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev=3D<a href=3D"mailto:yahoo.com= @groups.io" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""></d= iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left= :1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class= = =3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">= <div class=3D"">On Dec 6, 2019, at 7:01 AM, Eb Alson <<a href=3D"mailto:= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wro= te:</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" c= lass=3D"">Under what circumstances should a leader impose any of these prac= tices?</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>H= ow about needing to have things done?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><= /div><div class=3D"">Slava</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote = type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""></div></blockquote></div></div><di= v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote typ= e=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div c= lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2= 019 at 9:58 AM R Dymond <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target= =3D"_blank" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""></= div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef= t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">CNCF is rea= lly impressive. That growth! It is underwritten by linux foundation and goo= gle.<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" cla= ss=3D"">I was discussing TDD with a leader in a software company that just = closed a $40M round and expects to grow from 19 to 40 teams. He said they h= ave some teams who do TDD and pairing all the time, some who do it only on = harder stuff and some who do not. They have some former thoughtworks alumni= and many junior staff, and given the difficulty of recruiting senior staff= in their location they expect many of their new hires to be 0 to 3 years o= f experience.</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div d= ir=3D"auto" class=3D"">He has had the experience of being in company where = they mandated TDD and pairing, then had some people leave and other people = who wanted to work that way join.</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br cla= ss=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">So it is a puzzle to him as well= . He doesn't feel he can mandate it at this point, and also he would p= refer pull to push.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div data-smartmail=3D"gma= il_signature" dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Robin Dymond, CST<br class=3D"">Manag= ing Partner, Innovel<br class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.innovel.net/" targ= et=3D"_blank" class=3D"">www.innovel.net</a><br class=3D""><a href=3D"http:= //www.scrumtraining.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">www.scrumtraining.co= m</a><br class=3D"">Direct: (804) 239-4329<br class=3D"">twitter: @robindym= ond<br class=3D"">Linkedin: <a href=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob= indymond" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindym= ond</a></div></div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir= = =3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 7:13 AM Ron Jeffries &l= t;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote cla= ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa= dding-left:1ex">Hi ...<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> sent from iPad, probably via Mars. Errors, if any, are not mine.<br class= =3D""> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank= " class=3D"">[email protected]</a> is a better address for me, maybe.<br = class=3D""> <br class=3D""> > On Dec 5, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Slava Imeshev via Groups.Io <imeshev= =3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bl= ank" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > There may be many more ways to accomplish this without doing it Scrum= way. Just a few initial ideas:<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > 1. Textbooks combined with guided self-study.<br class=3D""> > 2. Udemy/Cousera/Youtube video courses.<br class=3D""> > 3. Reference cards to be given to new hires ("This is how we do it he= re").<br class=3D""> > 4. Continuous stream of talks at conferences and meetups.<br class=3D= ""> > 5. Magazine articles.<br class=3D""> > 6. Study groups.<br class=3D""> > 5. A mobile app with references.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > What else?<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> Yes I think there are ways like that, and they are needed. I believe that = the price has to be low enough that developers themselves will pay it if ne= ed be. This makes me think that, in early days at least, until volumes come= up -- if they do -- the creation of these things needs to be underweritten= .<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> R<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> </blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b= r class=3D""></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>= <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote = type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">-- <br class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr"= data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">= <div class=3D""><div class=3D"">blog: <a href=3D"http://eikonne.wordpress.c= om/" rel=3D"me nofollow" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://eikonne.wordpr= ess.com</a></div><div class=3D"">LinkedIn: <a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/i= n/ebenezer-ikonne" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://linkedin.com/in/eben= ezer-ikonne</a></div> <div class=3D"">twitter: @eikonne</div></div></div></div> </div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D= "webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"webkit-block-= placeholder"></div></blockquote></div></div>-- <br class=3D""><div dir=3D"l= tr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir= =3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">blog: <a href=3D"http:= //eikonne.wordpress.com/" rel=3D"me nofollow" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">= http://eikonne.wordpress.com</a></div><div class=3D"">LinkedIn: <a href=3D"= http://linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http:/= /linkedin.com/in/ebenezer-ikonne</a></div> <div class=3D"">twitter: @eikonne</div></div></div></div> </div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160466">View/Reply Online (#160466)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DPriv= ate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%= 20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --Apple-Mail=_4C3B614A-02A2-4393-A7A6-F8CB2F9E6E53--