Re: [testdrivendevelopment] "I think the community needs more explicit direction...."

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What gets me is how many managers that used to be experienced, technical
contributors with this background seem to forget it almost immediately when
switch to management.

I understand culture and mindsets are hard to modify, but what do we *do*
to make positive impact in difficult circumstances like these?

Demonstrating the effects of the practices is difficult because often
you're not given enough time to show a design that falls over do to
improper care.

--
Edwin G. Castro


On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:46 AM Charles Gallo <[email protected]> wrote:

> And then they get to the point the program is buggy, because it is
> anti-DRY, and not SOLID at all, and they (Management) throws up their
> hands, bring in some new technology, and throws THAT at it, hoping that at
> least parts work, until they re-write the whole thing
>
> AKA they not only haven't learned from Fred Brooks, they probably have
> never heard the name, because they are a good dressing 35-40 year old, and
> of COURSE things are different now, and everyone knows this new
> framework/package is going to cure all our problems
>
> Silver Bullets, Mongolian Horde method of programming, and a re-write will
> always be better (How much business logic have I seen in controllers, and
> repeated multiple places, because they don't want to touch the classes the
> ORM generated
>
>
> Charlie
>
> (looking for a new gig btw)
>
>
> On 2019-11-25 12:36, Tim Ottinger wrote:
>
> EVERYTHING a new programmers sees is "memorize how to do this, use it to
> get an effect, move on quickly" and of course going faster is the hallmark
> of a good programmer. What does a code craft person know? They took all day
> on this code, but I spat out more code in a half-day and completed more
> tickets. What good is TDD, Refactoring, etc if it slows us down!?
>
> And managers generally agree. Faster is better. More faster is more
> better. The fastest programmer is the best programmer.
>
> So *learning* is a waste. *knowing* is a waste. Refactoring is waste.
> Testing is waste. Just get the effect and move on, friends.
>
> Except that all of that is wrong and a dead end.
>
> But how can you tell people whose whole worldview is, and has always been,
> exactly to get an effect and move on?
>
> 
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">What gets me is how many managers that used to be experien=
ced, technical contributors with this background seem to forget it almost i=
mmediately when switch to management.<div><br></div><div>I understand cultu=
re and mindsets are hard to modify, but what do we *do* to make positive im=
pact in difficult circumstances like these?</div><div><br></div><div>Demons=
trating the effects of the practices is difficult because=C2=A0often you&#3=
9;re not given enough time to show a design that falls over do to improper =
care.</div><div><br></div><div>--</div><div>Edwin G. Castro</div><div><br><=
/div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:46 AM Charles Gallo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ch=
[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<p>And then they get to the point the program is buggy, because it is anti=
-DRY, and not SOLID at all, and they (Management) throws up their hands, br=
ing in some new technology, and throws THAT at it, hoping that at least par=
ts work, until they re-write the whole thing<br><br>AKA they not only haven=
&#39;t learned from Fred Brooks, they probably have never heard the name, b=
ecause they are a good dressing 35-40 year old, and of COURSE things are di=
fferent now, and everyone knows this new framework/package is going to cure=
 all our problems<br><br>Silver Bullets, Mongolian Horde method of programm=
ing, and a re-write will always be better (How much business logic have I s=
een in controllers, and repeated multiple places, because they don&#39;t wa=
nt to touch the classes the ORM generated</p>
<p><br></p>
<p>Charlie</p>
<p>(looking for a new gig btw)</p>
<p><br></p>
<p>On 2019-11-25 12:36, Tim Ottinger wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid=
 rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div dir=3D"ltr">EVERYTHING a new programmers sees is &quot;memorize how t=
o do this, use it to get an effect, move on quickly&quot; and of course goi=
ng faster is the hallmark of a good programmer. What does a code craft pers=
on know? They took all day on this code, but I spat out more code in a half=
-day and completed more tickets. What good is TDD, Refactoring, etc if it s=
lows us down!?<br><br>And managers generally agree. Faster is better. More =
faster is more better. The fastest programmer is the best programmer.=C2=A0=
<br><br>So *learning* is a waste. *knowing* is a waste. Refactoring is wast=
e. Testing is waste. Just get the effect and move on, friends.<br><br>Excep=
t that all of that is wrong and a dead end.=C2=A0<br><br>But how can you te=
ll people whose whole worldview is, and has always been, exactly to get an =
effect and move on?=C2=A0</div>
</blockquote>

</div>



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