Re: MIME types, again ("Nautilus" ain't the answer)

on Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 11:00:14AM -0500, Logan Rathbone ([email protected]) wrote:
> An anti-GNOME rant, eh?  I'm always up to defend my favourite desktop
> :-)

Sure.  I've addressed bits of this previously....

 
> On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 09:19:48PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > on Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 11:07:26PM -0500, Adam Hooper ([email protected]) wrote:

> >   - Other random breakage, depending on the level of cerebral-fecal
> >     impaction of the GNOME team this week.
> 
> Ah, so you've sunk to the level of flaming GNOME developers.
> Interesting.

With cause and provocation.  May I advise the always illuminating Jeff
Waugh In His Own Words:  An agony in seven fits?

    http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2004-January/008588.html

That post, and the thread to which it's posted, contain several and
repeated dismissals and insults from _core_ GNOME devs.  Waugh was (is?)
GNOME release manager, a fact I still find hard to believe.

Chip Salzenberg's own comments to that thread (Chip's a Perler of some
note -- a project with its own noted approach to users and developers)
are of note.  Oh, and he's a Galeon user, at least on the basis of the
fact he's filing bugs on Galeon in the Debian BTS.

 
> The choice is yours.  That's why we are Linux, BSD, etc. users -- we
> don't feel we have enough of a choice with other environments.  If you
> don't like the workings of the GNOME development team, no one's making
> you use their desktop.  

GNOME is the only 'Nix desktop of which I'm aware which makes it
difficult and/or impossible to use apps portably within other contexts.

One of the major selling points of Free Software is an avoidance of
lock-in.  GNOME is attempting same, and I Don't Like It[tm].  I'm not
the only one to notice.  And I'll point it out clearly and repeatedly,
should the topic arise and be relevant.

> The GNOME team hasn't planned some ultimate cat-stroking,
> world-domination plan, nor are they forcing people to use Nautilus,
> Galeon, etc. in a GNOME-only environment.

Well, that _does_ raise the question of how we're all supposed to set
our MIME types if Nautilus is (apparently) The One True Way.

Which gets to the architectural argument, and a distinguishing feature
of GNOME vs KDE (no, I don't run KDE either, but I use a handful of KDE
apps).

  - In GNOME, typically, one uses a specific _application_ to modify a
    configuration setting.  Said apps have changed rather markedly over
    the years, and it's hard to keep straight for those of us who make
    minimal use of GNOME.

  - In KDE, typically, one uses a specific _control_ to modify a
    configuration setting.  That control can be embedded withing
    _multiple_ applications.  I'm not a C/C++ apps developer, but know a
    few.  One I know and respect, Sean Perry (Debian developer)
    explained it being largely a result of KDE's use of C++ lending
    itself to component reuse.  I can't vouch for that, but it makes a
    certain amount of sense.  Mind:  not all KDE design is elegant, and
    I find making changes to Konqueror browser settings a bit twisted
    too.  However, the controls *tend* to be accessible _from the
    browser_ directly, rather than through some third app.
 
> If all this is about Nautilus's drawing of the desktop when invoked
> without any options, that issue has already been addressed by Adam and
> myself.  

I class it as a design bug for reasons stated in prior mails.

> But I do agree (and this is probably the only part of your whole
> e-mail that I do agree with) that Nautilus should be "smart" and
> rather than having a --no-desktop option, it should start without the
> desktop by default and have a --desktop option instead.

What it *should* do is auto-sense (with an option for manual override).
 
> As do your arguments, the rest of your e-mail gradually progresses
> towards purer and purer flamebait.
> 
> > For all of that, Nautilus remains:
> > 
> >   - Slow.
> 
> What are you basing that on? 

I'd suggest you read the linked usability report.  Nautilus has _always_
been slow when I've used it, which admittedly isn't often.  However
every time I hear "...but it's much better now" arguments, I find it's
not.  Could have changed.

> >   - Underfeatured -- MC does more, absent "oh, you need a wind-up,
> >     candy-striped, squirrel-driven steamroller for _that_ functionality"
> >     add-ons.
> 
> IMHO, Nautilus does all it should, no more, no less.  

Specific reference above to file-roller (alluded as steamroller above).

> It allows the user to manage files.  What features does it have that
> you'd need?  I look at a file manager like Konqueror and I think
> "bloated!"  

On the odd occasion I use Konq as an FM (usually under Knoppix), it
strikes me as pretty elegant.

IMO:  a "file manager" is really a "user-oriented information mediation
tool".  It doesn't particularly matter if the information is a
filesystem, hypertext server (e.g.:  Web browser), document viewer,
image viewer, multimedia player, help system(s) browser.  GNOME
apparently compartmentalizes this stuff somewhat.  Konq _does_ do the
right thing, IMO, with one-stop shopping.

> At least when I'm in Nautilus I feel like I'm in control, and it's
> great for basic file management.  I personally prefer the console for
> most of my file management personally, but since the introduction of
> spatial Nautilus, I've found myself using a graphical file manager for
> the first time in years.  It just "feels" so smooth and aesthetic to
> me.
 
> > Etc.
> 
> Please elaborate.  

Read the linked article in my prior post.

 
> > I'm with OP:  if Galeon *insists* on using GNOME misfeatures for storage
> > of configuration data, provide UI access to same from within Galeon.
> > 
> > If this can't be done, I'd strongly suggest reconsidering widget sets
> > and pulling from elsewhere where possible.
> 
> I believe the developers are quite happy with their product in the
> making, and there are many people who are very happy with the transition
> between 1.2 and 1.3.x.  

I *do* hope you've heard of self-selction bias.

The people who haven't been sufficiently shocked by the 1.2 => 1.3
transition are still here.  Many of the others have left, typically for
Mozilla or Firefox.   I don't have hard numbers, nor does anyone else.
However anecdotal evidence from mailing list and IRC conversations
(#debian largely) seem to bear this out.  I posted stats on Google
results for various browser identifiers as a rough proxy for popularity:

    http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=9933712

...and the one positive note is that Epiphany is positively buried --
fewer mentions than Dillo.

I've detailed in the past week the reasons why, on balance, Galeon
remains my preferred browser.  The GNOMEisms are not among the reasons.


> If you loved 1.2.x so dearly, why don't you fork it and start your own
> web browser?  

I've answered this question previously in depth, on this list.  Read
archives and respond to any specific issues you'd like further
illumination on.


> You'd probably get further than you would by just bitching about 1.3.

Despite some (understandable) grousing from the developers, I point out
feature requests (with rationales) and have seen several of these show
up in 1.3.  Two or three within recent weeks (Portal subpages,
Java/Javascript on menu rather than Preferences dialog, stylesheet
chooser).

So I don't think the ears are totally deaf.


> > > > Wouldn't it be possible for Galeon to have a menu item that let you
> > > > go straight to Gnome's "mime.types" system?  It would even be
> > > > possible to only display this menu item if it were determined that
> > > > KDE was running.
> > > 
> > > Yes, it would be possible. But who's going to write it? As far as I
> > > know, all Galeon developers use GNOME.
> > 
> > Pity, that.
> 
> Here's some light "bedtime reading" for you all: [1] and [2].  [1] tells
> you how the new Freedesktop MIME system works, and [2] tells you how
> these programs add MIME types to the database.  Rather than using
> /etc/mailcap, they use some very nice and easy-to-understand XML files
> that define basically the same stuff that /etc/mime.types and
> /etc/mailcap did, but with several advantages:
> 
> - Obviously it is now a Freedesktop specification, and it's meant to be
>   *used*.  And that's all the GNOME team is doing:  following standards.
>   If you disagree with those standards, which will eventually be adopted
>   by the KDE team, and already has been adopted by GNOME and ROX (and
>   probably others).  I for one hope that the "real UNIX method" (I
>   prefer "old" or "legacy" method) is eventually deprecated in favour of
>   the freedesktop.org standard.
> 
> - .desktop files will be allowed to be defined as a "can-edit-with"
>   option.  This has many clear advantages, but probably most
>   importantly, if the .desktop file contains "StartupNotify=true" then
>   in theory (I say in theory because Nautilus/Galeon don't do this 
>   properly  yet, but should) the user should get a nice busy cursor as
>   the program is invoked as an "open with."  You may argue that "KDE
>   already does this!"  But KDE's method is much more broken now IMHO --
>   first of all they don't use the freedesktop MIME standard yet, and
>   second, they *always* give an app startup notification, which means
>   that legacy apps will have a busy cursor that continues to be busy
>   even after the legacy app has started.

I've looked at .desktop specs a tad.  Enough, apparently, to eff-up my
own configuration, though that could just have been Debian.  Current
testing _doesn't_ have a reliable "open-with" functionality under
Galeon.  As previously noted, I try to assemble a URL (usually have to
piece it together from the Galeon dialog), open a term, wget, and run
app of my choice.  Really, that's easier than the GNOME way.

 
> > Peace.
> 
> I have a feeling that this is actually "war" ;-)

There's a story to 'Peace'.

It's not an automatically appended sig.  I type it at the end of very
nearly all mails.  If I leave it out, I'm *very* *seriously* pissed.  Or
dealing with a spamhaus.....

After 9/11, I decided that peace was what this world needed.  Not at
absolutely any cost.  But it's the objective, damnit.  Even if I tag it
on at the end of a heated email, it's a note to myself if nobody else,
that it's the goal in mind.

The quotes beneath my sig _are_ automated and randomly selected from a
collection I maintain.


 
> References:
> [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/Standards/shared-mime-info-spec
> [2] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Standards_2fAddingMIMETutor

Thanks, I'll give that a read.

Note though (and this goes with the GNOME/KDE comments above WRT
interfaces for modifying data):

  - There's nothing wrong with centralizing data stores and config
    settings, of itself.  /etc/mime.types, /etc/mailcap,
    /etc/X11/Xresources/, gconf, Windows Registry.  Whatever.

    There *is* a strong benefit in user-readable and user-modifiable
    data.  For your own reading assignment, ESR's _The Art of Unix
    Programming_, particularly Chapter 5's "The Importance of Being
    Textual"

      http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch05s01.html

    The problem typically has been specifying a format which is both
    technically useful (flexible enough to specify programming options,
    capable of being automatically maintained) *and* is human readable /
    modifiable.  XML sort of falls down on the latter requirement, not
    that it isn't without its benefits elsewhere.  Simple value
    assignment config files are pretty valuable.  One interesting case
    is the Debian apt database:  there's a binary version somewhere
    optimized for search, but the textfiles are the canonical reference,
    and override the latter.  As opposed to RPM which was for a time
    notorious for eating its guts out and puking on its feet (may have
    been fixed, I avoid RPM systems these days).

  - Creating a storage format tied to a specific interaction tool _is_
    broken.  That's one of several major faults with the Windows
    Registry[1].  The counterexample is the Linux kernel's /proc and
    /sys filesystems.  Rather than having to write C code to access
    kernel memory structures, I can use standard file access tools to
    query _or_ set values.  *That* is power and flexibility.  One result
    is my own humble contribution to GNU/Linux, 'system-info', a script
    which documents a fair bit of miscellany about system state:

        http://twiki.iwethey.org/Main/LinuxSystemInfoScript

    No, it's not a stunning achievement, but that's pretty much the
    point.  It's _trivial_ to grab a bunch of meaningful system state.



Getting to main points, what I'd like to see from Galeon in general is:

  - Being a useful browser.

  - Putting the user in the driver's seat.  Not the web designer.  Not
    the ad server.  Not the developer.  The user.

  - Being generally available.  I *really* don't give a shit how many
    GNOME libs are pulled, in, so long as the browser and its config
    tools don't fuck with my environment.  Nautilus *does* fuck with it,
    as noted, unless I take specific actions to avoid same.


--------------------
Notes:

1.  ...which itself raises a few interesting points.  Somewhere in the
    Waugh fit linux-elitists thread, IIRC, the old "but the gconf
    registry *isn't* the same as the legacy MS Windows registry 'coz
    it's not a fragile binary structure that shits its pants when you
    look at it crossly" argument was trotted out.  While that is *a*
    fault of Microsoft's implementation, it's hardly the only:

      - Undocumented settings.
      - Indecipherable/obfuscated keys.
      - Indecipherable/obfuscated values.
      - Limited interface.

    IMVAO it's the last which is the primary problem.  Regedit is slow,
    limiting, and not scriptable.  There are now some alternative tools:
    Microsoft's got "REG.EXE" in WinXP (IIRC a "Resource Kit" feature,
    meaning it's not there by default), and Cygwin's 'regtool' command
    can be run on any legacy MS Windows platform.  But the true winner
    is AT&T Research's UWIN toolkit, which provides a /reg filesystem,
    see /proc discussion above. 

-- 
Karsten M. Self <[email protected]>        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
  Information is not power after all: Old-fashioned power is power. If you
  aren't big industry or government, you have very little power. Once they've
  hacked the electronic voting system, you'll have no power at all.
  - Robert X. Cringely

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