Re:

Adam,
    Thanks for the response.  I understand when you say "a lawyer" (or in
our case a recruiter).  I agree there will always be shady recruiters,
consultants, and business out there.  I guess it is everyone's job to
determine for themselves who they want/will work for or with.  Like in
your instance with that recruiter, I also have been burned by
consultants.  I just felt compelled to speak up for those of us that do
our job with integrity and only want to have a good working relationship
with the best consultants in the industry.  It is good to have an open
debate.

Jeremy

Adam Tuliper wrote:

> Your argument holds some water..but let me tell a quick
> true story.
> There was a job here a while back that the company wanted
> to pay bottom dollar for a good dotnet person. A recruiter
> called me about the position. I told the recruiter no
> way..not for that price.. and the recruiter said "I know..
> I actually told them to increase their rate because they
> wont get anyone half decent for what they want"
>
> If I was a company hiring I would hope the recruiter would
> tell me what I would get for that price rather than just
> saying "sure!!! no problem.. Ill find you someone!"
>
> In the case of the posting to this list...I would think the
> recruiter would tell the company that chances are they wont
> find anyone with a good skill set for that price, otherwise
> it seems like the recruiter is just being the equiv. of
> what common society sees an slimy attorney (not saying all
> attorneys are slimy,... im saying a slimy attorney).. in
> the sense that they will find anyone for the price
> regardless of their skills.
>
> Ive seen recruiters place complete idiots on positions for
> job because they would work for a lesser rate, and in the
> end the entire job was botched, making the recruiter look
> bad and costing the company more because it had to be
> redone by someone with a decent skillset.
>
> On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:55:13 -0400
>  "Jeremy J. Thornton" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Rahul and company,
> >     I am failing to see the rational behind blaming
> > recruiters for
> > rates.  I obviously am a recruiter.  Let me try to
> > explain, have you
> > ever seen those pictures where depending on how you look
> > at it it could
> > either be an old woman or a young woman (psychologist use
> > them to
> > determine how people view things).  While you see the
> > young lady in the
> > picture, I see the old woman.  It is the same way with
> > rates.  Your
> > viewpoint is what you get paid, and my view point is what
> > a company
> > allows us to charge.  We are not looking at the same
> > thing, thus we will
> > never agree on what is really the issue here.  Companies
> > set the rates
> > in the industry, not recruiters.  We obviously have a job
> > to do as well
> > and deserve to be paid for those services, just as you
> > deserve to be
> > paid for what you do.
> >     Anyway I just wanted to point out that there are
> > recruiters, like
> > myself, that try to take care of our consultants and that
> > means that
> > they get paid fairly.  The honest truth is that the bad
> > economy has
> > triggered a power shift and now most companies are
> > calling the shots.
> >
> > "Guha, Rahul" wrote:
> >
> > > This is an interesting discussion ? although thought
> > NOT to join this
> > > because essentially this is NOT a discussion forum but
> > a job posting
> > > thread ? but can?t resist the temptation. Here are my
> > two cents:
> > >
> > > 1.In my opinion, we all are experiencing a subtle but
> > interesting
> > > shift in software development philosophy. The Companies
> > are moving
> > > away from developing custom software and skewing
> > towards buying off
> > > the shelf products and customize them per their
> > requirements. This is
> > > terrible for people like us (who do in house
> > development) ? but
> > > probably from company?s perspective it is useful.
> > Nowadays most of the
> > > functional business requirements are been catered by
> > some kind of
> > > software packages and they come for pretty less price.
> > That obviously
> > > lure the companies. But in many cases, there are hidden
> > cost of
> > > Consultant Hours and other charges which finally drive
> > up the TCO.
> > > Which one finally pays off ?? Not sure .. but surely
> > this reduces the
> > > requirement of very highly skilled in-house s/w
> > developers for many of
> > > the requirements. It boils down to integrating between
> > pieces of
> > > components which although not trivial ? but in most
> > cases doesn?t need
> > > huge architecture / design type work. That?s why my
> > nine years of OO
> > > experience probably become little bit ?over
> > qualification? for such
> > > work. Add recent trend of off-shoring various
> > development jobs.
> > >
> > > Probably skills are moving towards product development
> > companies who
> > > deliver these tools.
> > >
> > > 2.Resume? manipulation was always a problem and I have
> > seen it for H1
> > > and non-H1s ? It?s a question of attitude ? H1s had
> > their contribution
> > > in developing this economy as well as internet boom in
> > late nineties.
> > > They were part of lots of phenomenal development
> > initiatives. And
> > > there are abuses too. But if you look through ? people
> > who always made
> > > money out of it was the recruiters and the sweat shops
> > ? We all know
> > > the usual ratio of the recruiting job shops use to make
> > and to their
> > > H1s were paid (it use to be around 60 to 40 ratio) ?
> > And ? they were
> > > NOT H1s ?
> > >
> > > The only point I want to make is ? we all should be
> > very much aware of
> > > these recruiters who make their living out of somebody
> > else?s
> > > intellectual asset and almost control the price of that
> > at their
> > > will.
> > >
> > > I think it is outrageous to ask for Tech. Lead for
> > VS.Net in NYC for
> > > 50K per year ?
> > >
> > > I am still waiting to see his rationale (if there is
> > any) and comments
> > > on that ?
> > >
> > > Rahul Guha
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob Coward [mailto:[email protected]]
> > > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 9:15 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > >
> > > Reply,
> > >
> > > I'll agree with Larry but a business movement is the
> > last thing we
> > > will see
> > >
> > > (IMHO).Companies maintain H1B relationships and others
> > because of the
> > >
> > > corporate tax liability...basically there is none.To
> > conduct business
> > > this
> > >
> > > way only exploits and overcasts the bottom line the
> > companies report
> > > because
> > >
> > > the taxes not paid are transferred as earnings.This is
> > the legal
> > > loophole
> > >
> > > that Enron, WorldCom, and others tried to exploit to
> > pad their bottom
> > > line.
> > >
> > > But it is conclusive that the practice of hiring less
> > than capable
> > >
> > > programmers will cause a rift that company
> > administrators won't see
> > > until
> > >
> > > they have a black eye.
> > >
> > > My opinion is that this degradation on the job market
> > has been
> > > perpetuated
> > >
> > > by recruiters who exclude competent programming skills
> > and experience
> > > almost
> > >
> > > to the point of age discrimination.When your told your
> > over qualified
> > > to
> > >
> > > use VB. Net in VS 2003 someone has some very crossed
> > wires.
> > >
> > > If you have watched other sectors you will note some
> > interesting
> > >
> > > characteristics.As a carpenter that later invested the
> > education to
> > > enter
> > >
> > > the industry as a 1982 IBM Sys36 Cobol and Fortran
> > programmer, I now
> > > make
> > >
> > > more money doing the finish trim on a custom home than
> > any offer I've
> > > seen
> > >
> > > in two years as a programmer.
> > >
> > > Don't think that there is recovery anytime soon.All
> > indicators point
> > > to
> > >
> > > programming being a $35K to $42K industry on average if
> > recruiters are
> > >
> > > allowed to continue there segregating grip on corporate
> > HR.We as US
> > >
> > > citizens will further endure excessive tax liability
> > because
> > > corporations
> > >
> > > make these exploits and the W2 worker pays for more
> > gorged budgets.
> > >
> > > So what is the outcome.Incorporate, maintain strict
> > records so when
> > > your
> > >
> > > taxes are filed the government gives you your next
> > years operating
> > > capital
> > >
> > > in the form of a refund.If the job market was
> > generating a correct
> > > index
> > >
> > > then corporate earnings would out way the many, many
> > deductions that
> > >
> > > overwhelm revenues and lead to a phat corporate tax
> > return.
> > >
> > > I want to raise my earnings for next year, getting work
> > is harder than
> > >
> > > taking a loss for not getting the work.A perpetual
> > vacation instilled
> > > by
> > >
> > > the present IT market that can generate a balanced P&L
> > after the
> > > refund is
> > >
> > > deposited.On one hand it sux, but after your used to it
> > you find it
> > > isn't
> > >
> > > all that bad and you have plenty of time to read while
> > those W2
> > > workers
> > >
> > > build the government coffers so I can get a good
> > refund.
> > >
> > > So hey everyone...work a little (4 months), then
> > vacation (looking for
> > > work)
> > >
> > > until your refunded all those expenses that took all
> > operating capital
> > > and
> > >
> > > extended your vacation.
> > >
> > > Good luck
> > >
> > > Bob Coward
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > > From: Unmoderated DOTNET job forum
> > >
> > > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
> > David P. Brown
> > >
> > > Sent:Friday, June 06, 2003 11:37 AM
> > >
> > > To: [email protected]
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [DOTNET-JOBS]
> > >
> > > Lighten up, please. I for one am enjoying this
> > discussion.
> > >
> > > Nice post, Larry. :)
> > >
> > > David P. Brown
> > >
> > > Sr. SQA Engineer
> > >
> > > Kofax Image Products
> > >
> > > Irvine, CA
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > > From: Unmoderated DOTNET job forum
> > > [mailto:[email protected]]
> > >
> > > On Behalf Of Christine Larsen
> > >
> > > Sent:Thursday, June 05, 2003 6:26 PM
> > >
> > > To: [email protected]
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [DOTNET-JOBS]
> > >
> > > this is not a discussion group but a job posting board
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > > From: Larry O'Brien [mailto:[email protected]]
> > >
> > > Sent:Thursday, June 05, 2003 4:47 PM
> > >
> > > To: [email protected]
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [DOTNET-JOBS]
> > >
> > > > once the market picks up again, and it
> > >
> > > > will, companies like this one will suffer tremendous
> > turnover
> > >
> > > Surely that's true, but it doesn't necessarily mean
> > that they will go
> > > out of
> > >
> > > business. To me, the overall market seems to be moving
> > towards
> > > inexpensive
> > >
> > > incompetence: under-specified, under-bid, and
> > under-delivered
> > > projects. But
> > >
> > > the monthly bill is less! I do not think software
> > development
> > > professionals
> > >
> > > have proved to business leaders that an understanding
> > of software
> > >
> > > development processes and practices translates into
> > less expense in
> > > the long
> > >
> > > run. Everyone on this list may know that the lessons of
> > "The Mythical
> > >
> > > Man-Month" still hold true, but does the average
> > business leader? Or
> > > do they
> > >
> > > think "Yeah, that's just the squawking of people who
> > miss their
> > > foosball
> > >
> > > tables and in-office massages"? I think that the gap
> > between good
> > > software
> > >
> > > development practices and average software development
> > practices is
> > > growing
> > >
> > > and I think that for that to change, there must be a
> > movement in the
> > >
> > > _business_ world, but if you read the business
> > magazines or the
> > >
> > > business-oriented software development magazines, this
> > year's silver
> > > bullets
> > >
> > > are outsourcing and cost control.
> > >
> > > Just my depressed $.02 cents,
> > >
> > > Larry
> > >
> > > http://www.ThinkingIn.NET/
> > >
>
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