Re: A strawman proposal for X.org & XFree86.org

On Sunday 30 March 2003 21:23, Havoc Pennington wrote:
|  On Sun, Mar 30, 2003 at 11:42:12AM +0400, Vadim Plessky wrote:
|  > We need to put Xr/Xc support in basic toolkit libraries - Qt and GTK.
|  > And later to get it to upper level - KDE and GNOME.
|  > But what toolkit developers say at a moment: "as Xr/Xc not available on
|  > other X implementations (except XFree86), we can't use due to
|  > interoperability issues"
|
|  Toolkit developers do NOT say that. Xr/Xc are client libs. When we add
|  support for them, if you don't have them on your X implementation, you
|  can download and install them as a separate package.

Just to clarify things:  I has asked on kde-core wether FontConfig is an 
requirement for KDE 3.1
And answer was: no, it's not a requirement, but KDE/Qt can use it if 
FontConfig is installed.

|
|  We're going ahead and requiring fontconfig for GNOME 2.2 and GTK+ 2.4,
|  because you can download it and install it if you don't have it.

I am really happy to hear that!

|
|  > I mean, we should make it clear:  either you commit yourself to
|  > implementing all necessary extensions (not only Render, but Xr/Xc/RandR
|  > as well) to X on a timely basis, or we do not allow you to participate
|  > in further development of standards.
|
|  There's plenty of incentive to ship the standard without having silly
|  rules like that. Lots of software such as GNOME and KDE will use
|  standard features, so everyone will have plenty of incentive to ship
|  the standard features. You don't need incentive beyond that. If part
|  of the standard genuinely offers no value, there's no reason to
|  require people to follow it.

I think we have following points in our discussions:
* what is the current standard(s)
* who decides what is going in and what - not
* what features are necessary (in XFree86) to build successfull Linux (UNIX) 
Desktop?

If there is a nice standard - than no doubt, both GNOME and KDE would pick it 
up.
But what would happen if there is no common standard?..

|
|  > Don't get me wrong: I vote for *one* OpenSource implementation of X.
|  > But I am wondering wether we should keep compatibility with previous X
|  > versions?
|
|  You have to keep compatibility. That's not even discussable, just a fact.

ok.  Are there any other opinions?

|
|  > I think you don't want to drop some legacy code in X fo Solaris, right?
|  > But most Linux users do not need legacy apps and old code, users request
|  > to trim bloat from X, make more frequesnt releases and reduce
|  > distribution size. That's somewhat opposite with X.org members, IMO.
|
|  You are not thinking about this the right way. The correct approach is
|  not to *delete* old stuff, but to *modularize* the codebase so you can
|  take what you need.

I agree with you: splitting code into modules is a way to go.
But in many cases, you lose backward compatibility after such splits.

|
|  > If leading role of XFree86 is accepted - than X.org should follow
|  > Xfree86 in trimming old code from sourcebase, that's it.
|  > Do we agree here?
|
|  You are putting the cart on the other side of the world from the
|  horse. ;-)

Why not?  :-)

|
|  > Drop xterm, twm, old X toolkits, PCF/BDF fonts, etc.
|  > We need just basic X APIs, sufficient for GTK and Qt toolkit to be
|  > operational.
|  > Motif support, etc. should be dropped ASAP.
|
|  No, there is no value to dropping this stuff. There *is* huge value in
|  modularizing it so there's not one huge distribution. But actively
|  deleting it - there's no value in that. If someone wants to maintain
|  it, let them do so. If you don't want that stuff, just don't install
|  it.

AFAIK, there is not  alot of people who wnat to work on that stuff.
So, getting *modules* out of Xfree86 CVS is certanly good idea.
Question is: would someone maintain those modules?

|
|  Havoc
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-- 
Best Regards,

Vadim Plessky
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