Re: Can there be same-sex union in Islam?

salaam Joyce, the vagueness could be cultural now that you mention it. Arabs
are taught to be humble, to not promote themselves and to not contradict
others or be aggressive. they also do rush marriage because they believe in
chastity. Many of us found that to be true. Eileen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joyce Lionarons" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex union in
Islam?


> Salaams Eileen and sisters,
>
> That must have been John Boswell -- I also have the book, but haven't
> read it yet.  Unfortunately the scholarship (at least with regard to
> Christianity) has been questioned by a large number of scholars, and not
> because of anti-gay bias on their part.
>
> On another subject (heterosexual rather than same-sex marriage), a week
> or so ago I wrote talking about the matchmaking my friends were trying
> to do for me -- so I should update you on what happened.  I've backed
> out of the whole thing.  I talked to Yusuf at length on the phone a
> couple of times, or maybe I should say he talked to me.  He lectured at
> great length, entirely in generalities!  After literally hours of
> listening, I still had no idea what he was like, other than verbose.  So
> no Yusuf for me.
>
> My friends also came up with a second man, who also spoke in
> generalities, again giving no indication of his likes, dislikes,
> expectations, etc.  Is this an Arabic cultural trait?
>
> And I think no matchmaking of that kind for me anyway.  I got the
> impression from both men that if we did like each other I would be
> expected to decide on marriage far too soon for my liking.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> kas2eileen wrote on 3/4/2004, 7:40 AM:
>
>  > salaam, that is what I was hoping someone else would know about. It
>  > was told
>  > to me by a gay man, now deceased who researched same sex unions in all
>  > religions. I have the book Same Sex Unions but could not find a
detailed
>  > reference.Eileen
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > From: <[email protected]>
>  > To: <[email protected]>
>  > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 11:16 PM
>  > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex union in
>  > Islam?
>  >
>  >
>  > > Eileen,
>  > >
>  > > Can you say more about this?
>  > >
>  > > -Mudhillun
>  > >
>  > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:25 PM -0500 kas2eileen
>  > > <[email protected]> wrote:
>  > >
>  > > > salaam, I had been told that in the middle ages it was not
>  > uncommon for
>  > > > gay Muslim lovers to commit domestically via adoption and be
>  > recognized.
>  > > > Is this true? Eileen
>  > > > ----- Original Message -----
>  > > > From: <[email protected]>
>  > > > To: <[email protected]>
>  > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:05 AM
>  > > > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex
>  > union in
>  > > > Islam?
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > > From Michigan where the democratic process flairs unwieldingly
and
>  > > > > frighteningly!
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I think there's space in Islam for recognizing the bonds that tie
>  > people
>  > > > > together, regardless of the genders of those involved . . . and
as
>  > we've
>  > > > > seen in the past, the number as well . . . obviously w/a caveat
of
>  > > > Qur'anic
>  > > > > guidance and what can reasonably be expected for a relationship
to
>  > bear
>  > > > > in the way of just treatment of participants as well as general
>  > > > > community welfare and spiritual enrichment.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I had recently heard that there was in Imam here in the United
>  > States
>  > > > who'd
>  > > > > been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what that Masjid is
>  > like,
>  > > > > I'd love to visit since it sounds like a place were all are
>  > welcome to
>  > > > > Allah's graces.)
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I just finished reading the submission in "Progressive Muslims"
>  > where
>  > > > Scott
>  > > > > Suraj Kugle talks about the place of sexual minorities in Islam.
It
>  > gave
>  > > > me
>  > > > > a refreshing insight thereof.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > While I was at home with my mother Sunday, we listened to Kecia
>  > Ali,
>  > > > > Omida Safi, Mr. Wolf, and Ms. Muhammad talk about change in
>  > Islam. We
>  > > > > were talking about reform and she'd said that when the common
>  > > > > expectation becomes gender justice in Islam, the rest would fall
in
>  > > > > line. I seem to remember that being an expectation or hope from
>  > some
>  > of
>  > > > > the other contributors in the book.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I guess we have to ask our selves if we think it's a benefit to
the
>  > > > > spiritual welfare of the community and the parties involved to
>  > recognize
>  > > > > same-sex relationships. Now, obviously as a civil law question I
>  > support
>  > > > > ALL who wish to cement a commitment of mutual care in this civil
>  > > > > institution simply as a matter of equality of legal application
and
>  > > > general
>  > > > > social cohesion. Whereas, in a religious context, it's not so
>  > simple.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I'd say if we agree that it's of benefit in our respective
>  > religious
>  > > > > communities (considering that this is a new phenomenon/question
>  > w/which
>  > > > > society is grappling in such a difficult and unique way), it
>  > seems the
>  > > > next
>  > > > > step is to look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and other
guides
>  > > > > (heavy emphasis on the Qur'an itself if you ask me) in crossing
>  > this
>  > > > > bridge that heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . . though
I'd
>  > > > > recently seen a movie where in a part of North Africa, there had
>  > been
>  > a
>  > > > > community of
>  > > > miners
>  > > > > circa early 20th century who were in the practice of marrying one
>  > > > > another and it seemed pretty sincere and there may have been an
>  > element
>  > > > > of religious sanctity employed.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > Certainly Feisal, Reformed Judaism and the Dutch Protestant
>  > Churches
>  > are
>  > > > > also useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions in
>  > Catholicism
>  > > > > and even cultures of the Asia and Africa in the past.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > But this is premised on the assumption that we agree that
same-sex
>  > > > marriage
>  > > > > has some benefit to the Islamic community and the individuals
>  > involved.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I assume we won't sadly but I hope at least that in some of our
>  > > > communities
>  > > > > we will begin to think more about what it means to restrict whole
>  > groups
>  > > > of
>  > > > > people from certain aspects of Islam.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > May Allah guide us in this and ALL questions that perplex us,
>  > > > > Mudhillun
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM +0800 Feisal Abdul Rahman
>  > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
>  > > > >
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > Assalamu'alaikum to everyone,
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > With all the heated debate in the US and elsewhere regarding
>  > same-sex
>  > > > > > marriage, I'm curious to find out from members of this list as
to
>  > > > whether
>  > > > > > there is, or if there can be, any room for sanctification of
>  > same-sex
>  > > > > > unions in (progressive) Islam, similar to that of the
Protestant
>  > > > > > Church in the Netherlands or of Reform/Reconstructionist
Judaism.
>  > > > > > Thank you.
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > Powered by Gee! - Wireless Access Anywhere
>  > > > > >
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