RE: Dutch debate on mosque closing

As a Dutch islamologist (although I should add that I am not a Muslim and I 
have been living abroad for an extended period of time now) I feel I have to 
contribute to the ongoing debate about the mosque closure issue in the 
Netherlands  by giving you a bit of background information.

This matter is not a recent phenomenon. Talk of closing mosques where imams 
are making statements/issue publications that run counter to certain 
inalienable rights recognized in the Netherlands' constitution is already at 
least three years old.

The root of the problem goes even further back. In the nineties there was 
growing concern with regards to the "profile" of certain imams preaching in 
mosques in the Netherlands. The vast majority of these mosques service 
migrant communities predominantly from Turkey and Morocco. We are talking 
hundreds of thousands of people here. They have migrated to the Netherlands 
as 'cheap labor' since the sixties and gradually opted for settling down 
permanently, bringing their families over as well. In order to meet their 
religious/spiritual needs the seventies saw a proliferation of 
mosques/places of worship in cultural centers etc.

The problem was however, how to staff these institutions. Most imams were 
recruited from the home countries of the migrants. Coordination took usually 
place on grassroot level, through mosque councils, etc. -- although regional 
and national platforms started to emerge as well. In the wake of the 
emergence of more and more radical/militant trends throughout the Muslim 
world in the course if the 1980s and 1990s, it is not surprising that 
proponents of that strand of Islam also made their way to the mosques in the 
Netherlands.

Things started to reach a boiling point when the sermons of certain very 
radical imams drew the attention of the intelligence service of the Ministry 
of Interior in the mid-1990s. Because some of their statements ran counter 
to what is considered tolerable under Dutch law, a more structured 
monitoring of the sermons and writings of certain imams took place.

When some really crossed the line with direct attacks on gays etc. this drew 
a response from the Netherlands' community at large and the OP-ED pages were 
filled with debates on to what extent the freedom of religion could be used 
to make offensive statements about others.

Parallel to this particular issue, a discussion was started if there should 
not be certain standards that imams should meet in order to be permitted to 
preach and do pastoral work in the Netherlands' setting. Discussions were 
held with platforms of migrant worker organizations and even the authorities 
in Morocco and Turkey to see if and to what extent the imams sent to the 
Netherland ought to be vetted. In addition to that a tertiary education 
facility for the training of imams was opened in the Netherlands. The 
purpose was to provide quality Islamic education alongside with introducing 
the future imams to certain values held by Dutch society, many of which had 
even legal underpinnings in both constitution and other corpi of law.

The issue became only frontpage news when, a few years ago, Hirsi managed to 
be elected an MP of the VVD. You should know that by Dutch standards this 
party is considered conservative, but can be qualified as center/liberal on 
the American spectrum. It was somewhat of a novelty that someone from the 
migrant community -- a Muslim woman to the boot --  opted to join this party 
in the first place,and even managed to get elected to parliament. Not 
surprisingly the VVD used her as a sort of flagship. In addition to that 
Hirsi happens to be very outspoken and articulate (verbally and in writing), 
which always makes for good media coverage.

I think this is only the beginning of a debate that is going to have many 
interesting -- but potentially also worrying -- twists and turns. It ties in 
with a much wider trend, linked to similar debates raging in France and 
Britain. Unfortunately it leads also to uglier developments, where rabid 
anti-Muslim elements jump the bandwagon and use Hirsi's statements to drive 
home their anti-Muslim -- sometimes even blatantly racist -- views.

I will continue to follow the debate on this network with great interest; it 
gives me a good impression how the Netherlands are regarded abroad.

Carool Kersten
Payap University
Chiang Mai, Thailand


>From: "Afdhere Jama" <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: Muslim community debate and 
>discussion<[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Dutch debate on mosque closing
>Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:45:51 -0700
>
>
>salam, brother moo,
>
>it is not a matter of feeling divided, it is a matter of fairness. i think 
>what is in those books are horrible. but then again, i think parts of the 
>hadiths, the talmuds, the works of the saint, etc, are horrible. if we are 
>going to ban one, we should ban all of them.
>
>you see, hirsi has a personal agenda :) all of her male family/relatives 
>have turned to wahabbism. as someone whose some of his family did the same, 
>and some of his people in general, i understand her frustrations. but it is 
>a far cry from fairness or equality... in the way she is doing.
>
>i'm a muslim and i do not believe in any of those crap those imams are 
>preaching. i believe in the complete legal fairness to women. but when it 
>comes to all the whackos, i'm fair to all of them-- muslim and otherwise.
>
>
>afdhere
>
>Afdhere Jama
>Editorial Director
>HURIYAH Publications
>PO BOX 423343
>San Francisco, CA 94142
>tel: [1] 415.517.0055
>e-mail: [email protected]
>website: http://www.huriyahmag.com
>
>
>
>
>>From: [email protected]
>>Reply-To: Muslim community debate and 
>>discussion<[email protected]>
>>To: Muslim community debate and 
>>discussion<[email protected]>
>>Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Dutch debate on mosque closing
>>Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:33:57 -0400
>>
>>Salaams on this Friday all!
>>
>>Afdhere, it's a tricky position. My gut reaction is that the Imam and the 
>>book
>>are out of line and deserve sanction.
>>
>>I definitely don't want to be unfair about this kind of thing when it 
>>comes to
>>other groups who do the same and I also think that the worst thing that 
>>could
>>happen would be to ban the books. But I do think it deserves more than 
>>just
>>"it's everywhere" dismissal. Maybe not "we kick you out because your
>>books/ideas are terrible" but something like "your mosque leader deserves 
>>a
>>rebuke for peddling books that incite violence against people". That's 
>>logicaly
>>weak too I think but I was thinking along the (kinda dubious) lines of Al
>>Capone being run in on tax evasion or a Klan group here in the midwest 
>>being
>>sued out of existance via civil infractions 9around hate speech) and 
>>damages
>>recouped thereoff. Maybe it's not a state issue in so much as they should 
>>just
>>keep an eye on things but that a 3rd party (say, other muslims and/or 
>>community
>>members) should/are standing up to counter the kinds of messages that are 
>>being
>>comuncated in that masjid.
>>
>>I just read in the NYTimes about another cleric ejected from France and 
>>things
>>are chaffing in England as well. I think the author of one of the books 
>>(or a
>>elated one) was under fire in Spain recently too.
>>
>>For people in the states and other countries not experiencing this kind of
>>friction publically, are we behind the curve? Are our societies better 
>>able to
>>acommodate situations that seem on their face to parallel these so that'ts 
>>why
>>we aren't also grappling with them? Am I missing something about my own
>>society?
>>
>>I'm scratchig my head because I don't know how I'd respond if this was 
>>happening
>>locally . . . I feel divided as a muslim and also as a national of the 
>>United
>>States. It doesn't seem to me so simple that this guy's out of the 
>>mainstream
>>so I could argue "Well, most of us don't believe that stuff, we're a very
>>egalitarian religion in principle and practice." It's like I'm starting to
>>understand the critique of the Muslim apologist and it really bugs me 
>>because
>>it seems to ring hollow.
>>
>>Any thoughts. suggestions, or council?
>>
>>Enjoy jumah (those who are attending),
>>Mudhillun
>>
>>Quoting Afdhere Jama <[email protected]>:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > salam,
>> >
>> > you have to copy the whole link:
>> >
>> >
>>http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=6851
>> >
>> > ok, this is my take on the thing. while i'm against all forms or 
>>oppression,
>> >
>> > i don't understand why the sister wants the mosque closed. these are 
>>the
>> > beliefs of many, many muslims. what is next... she is going to ask for 
>>the
>> > hadiths to be banned? the book in question, like thousands published 
>>each
>> > year, is nothing but 'adkaar' or something to help people *remember* 
>>the
>> > "teachings" of islam. literally, they just republish parts in the 
>>hadiths.
>> >
>> > that said, there are conservative jewish and christian places that 
>>teach
>> > things that are against the dutch laws... and they are left alone 
>>because
>> > the things are in the bible. is she going to ask those to be closed 
>>too?
>> >
>> >
>> > Afdhere Jama
>> > Editorial Director
>> > HURIYAH Publications
>> > PO BOX 423343
>> > San Francisco, CA 94142
>> > tel: [1] 415.517.0055
>> > e-mail: [email protected]
>> > website: http://www.huriyahmag.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: "Kate Ahmad" <[email protected]>
>> > >Reply-To: Muslim community debate and
>> > >discussion<[email protected]>
>> > >To: [email protected]
>> > >Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Dutch debate on mosque 
>>closing
>> > >Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:36:10 +1000
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Salaam Moo,
>> > >I really wanted to read this, but the link didn't work...  Not sure if 
>>its
>> > >just me or not, could you send it again if you have a chance?
>> > >Thanks!
>> > >
>> > >aisha
>> > >
>> > >>From: [email protected]
>> > >>Reply-To: Muslim community debate and
>> > >>discussion<[email protected]>
>> > >>To: [email protected]
>> > >>Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Dutch debate on mosque closing
>> > >>Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:05:18 -0400
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>Assalaamu Alaykuwn 'Todos!'
>> > >>
>> > >>I hope all are well and enjoying the seasonal shifts in your necks of 
>>the
>> > >>woods. (In MI, we just had taste of summer then snow flurries 
>>yesterday
>> > >>and it's supposed to be in the 70's Friday.)
>> > >>
>> > >>Anywho, I came across the story below and thought it might be worth
>> > >>sharing with others in the group. Have people heard of these books, 
>>"The
>> > >>Way of the Muslim" and "Fatwas for Muslim Women"? Followed the dutch
>> > >>story?
>> > >>
>> > >>Moo  :)
>> > >>
>> > >>"Hirsi Ali: shut anti-woman, anti-gay Dutch mosque"
>> > >>Expatica Magazine
>> > >>22 April 2004
>> > >>
>> > >>AMSTERDAM ? Somali-born MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali demanded on Thursday the
>> > >>closure of an Amsterdam mosque that sells books supporting female
>> > >>circumcision, beating wives and the murder of gay people.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > 
>> >><http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=
>> > >>6851>
>> > >>
>> > >>
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