CryoNet #32771 - #32773

CryoNet - Tue 17 Aug 2010

    #32771: Re: Oberon's proposal to stimulate cryonics research  [John de Rivaz]
    #32772: Cryonic as reward sytem / Kryonik als Belohnungssystem  [Jens Rabis]
    #32773: Re: CryoNet #32769 - #32770 [yvan Bozzonetti]

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Message #32771
From: "John de Rivaz" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Oberon's proposal to stimulate cryonics research 
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:42:12 +0100

There are certainly thousands of social scientists that would be interested 
in investigating anything for a fee.

Arlene Sheskin got her academic analysis of the sociology of cryonics by 
having her thesis published as a book:

http://www.amazon.com/Cryonics-Sociology-Bereavement-Arlene-Sheskin/dp/0470267860/

Rather than pay someone million of dollars over several years to do it all 
again, why not buy a used copy for $4.86 ?

An understanding of the issues around cryonics may not lead to a vast 
increase in membership if only a few people really wanted it. The issues 
have been discussed so much now and in so many different media few people 
could be unaware of all the objections and rebuttals.

Cryonics is not the same as offering someone a simple capsule containing 
proven nanotechnological assemblers that would restore their bodies to a 
youthful good health of indefinite duration, even if it may lead roughly in 
that direction.

Would a survey into any minority activity increase participation if it is 
simply something people don't want to do?

-- 
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:  http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including
Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley
Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy,  Nomad .. and
more

>>>
<del>
There are certainly thousands of social scientists that would be interested 
in investigating the social foundations of opposition to cryonics. An 
understanding of these issues would lead to a vast increase in membership 
and therefore the funds available for research.


dss


David Stodolsky
<del>
<<<

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Message #32772
From: "Jens Rabis" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Subject: Cryonic as reward sytem / Kryonik als Belohnungssystem 
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:40:04 +0200

Hi cryonauten, 

motivation is created through vision. The argument: "fear of dying" is bored
the mainstream. 
I lived many years in an area with few inhabitants, where I wanted to save
all people. Now I live in a big city. My motivation to save all people has
fallen. This feeling/discomfort puts us all - even the mainstream - in the
genes. When I see a lot of children - families are important! - my
motivation goes down even faster. Children prohibited/Birth rate control, is
against nature and again the political demand for growth. These are the
realities of the moment.

How about Cryonic as "reward system"? The reward system know our genes ;-)

In a new Institute get Cryonic only the people who brought social benefits.
Step 1: Invitation to the people to think about these rules. The rules shall
set any generation. Even if the rules change in the next generation, the
"old" Cryonauten get protection ... because it just then it had been.
Forgives you, because they did not know what they were doing :))

For example:
I nominate for the new Cryonic-Institute the rule: "The Giving Pledge".
If the people want, we invite as implementers (not just ideas, which is
easy) Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.

I am a realist: 
Maybe it can realize more quickly when given such an honorable person a
"honor room" in an existing Cryo-Institute.


****

Motivation entsteht durch Vision. Das Argument: "Angst vor dem Sterben"
langweilt den Mainstream. 
Ich lebte viele Jahre in einem Gebiet mit wenigen Einwohnern, wo ich alle
Menschen retten wollte. Jetzt lebe ich in einer GroBstadt. Meine Motivation
alle Menschen zu retten ist deutlich gesunken. Dieses Gefuhl/Unbehagen ist
genetisch bedingt - somit auch im Mainstream.  Wenn ich viele Kinder sehe -
Familien sind wichtig(!) - sinkt die Motivation noch schneller. Kinder
verbieten / Geburtenratensteuerung, ist gegen die Natur und gegen die
politische Forderung nach Wachstum. Dies sind derzeit die Realitaten. 

Wie war's mit einem Belohnungssystem fur Kryonik? Das Belohnungssystem
kennen unsere Gene ;-)

In einem neuem Institut bekommen nur die Personen Kryonik, welche
gemeinnutzige Bedingungen erfullten. Step 1.: Einladung an die Menschen,
uber diese Regeln nachzudenken. Die Regeln setzt jede Generation fest.
Selbst wenn sich die Regeln in der nachsten Generation andern, gibt es fur
die "alten" Cryonauten "Bestandsschutz"..., weil es eben damals so war.
Verzeiht Ihnen, denn sie wussten nicht, was sie taten :))

Ein Beispiel:
Ich nominiere fur das gemeinnutzige Kryonikinstitut, die Regel: "The Giving
Pledge".
Wenn die Personen es wunschen, laden wir als Realisierer (nicht nur
Ideengeber, das ist einfach) Bill Gates und Warren Buffett ein.

Ich bin Realist: 
Vielleicht lasst es sich schneller realisieren, wenn solche ehrenwerten
Personen einen "Ehrenraum" in einem vorhandenen Kryo-Institut bekommen.

Best greetings Jens Rabis
Germany-Berlin

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Message #32773
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:27:30 +0200
Subject: Re: CryoNet #32769 - #32770
From: yvan Bozzonetti <[email protected]>

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Re: Oberon's proposal to stimulate cryonics research


I think Oberon's proposal has one interesting point:
It aim towards reanimation, a subject not covered up to now by cryonics
research.
Now there is the question of the strategy to follow:
For me, the proposal is an all out one, put all eggs in the same basket and
try to get something out of the hat.
Beyond cryoprotectant problem, there are other as has been pointed out, for
example the protein denaturation.

So, why not start at molecular level and see where we are?
 We know that freezing produce a drying of the cell  interior (by osmotic
process), this induce a protein misfolding.
First question:
What is know in the published literature about this denaturizing effect?
Looking at Pub med for example for that could be done by nearly anyone at no
cost (beyond time).
From the 40 000 or so proteins we have, the normal folding is know only for
a minority of them, so freeze denaturad ones are even less known.
We need that information to solve the problem.

Second question:
Given the paucity of knowledge on the subject, we must look at setting up a
system able to analyze these badly folded proteins.
I think this can be done with nuclear magnetic resonance (not imaging
system, simply chemical analyzer).
To know about long range order, there is a need for very strong magnetic
field and these devices are very costly, this is big science.
Yet, if we move from nuclear spin to electronics ones, we can get a factor
near 2000 in frequency and resolving power with a given magnetic field.
A table-top device using permanent magnet could fit the bill, it could be
produced for less than $100 000.

Now is the problem of broken membranes:
At room temperature, all biological membrane at cellular level are oily, in
cold environment they turn stiff. When the cell shrinks because water goes
out with the osmotic effect, the membrane can't follow and get broken.

We have to see the real problem, not simply guess it or estimate it. This
needs a cell level imaging device. This has been done with MRI in the liquid
phase. MRI in solid is more difficult (very short so called time constant
T1), so I suggest experimenting with freeze dried sample using polarized He3
gas.

Existing MRI machine can be used for that, so there is no need for buying
one, the only problem is producing polarized He3. This must be the objective
of the research.



I understand that is basic research and don't will raise the deaths in the
coming years, yet any project not taking these steps into account is
condemned to fall because there will not be the basic information to go
beyond the start line.



Yvan Bozzonetti.

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