Re: OpenGL 3.0

Dan Partelly skrev:
> Not realistic.Open Source sucks.

Opinion.

> First, Youll never get full documentation=20
> from ATI and Nvidia and other HW vendors  for their hardware , second,=20

AMD/ATI and Intel do give quite a lot of documentation. Nvidia is a
problem, but that problem will be remedied only if they percieve open
documentation as giving them an edge.

> such=20
> a framerwork would be full of bugs,  would have bad support, and will=20
> degenerate sooner or later into a nigtmare source tree to maintain.

Would you pass me that crystal ball please? Mesa does not have these
problems.

> Above everything,  it does not solve the fundamanetal problem.  That be=
eing=20
> *THE STANDARD*. Thats managed by ARB, and whatever you implement in you=
r=20
> framework, must be consistent with ARB, if want to call it OpenGl. Othe=
rwise=20
> we can call it FantasyGl  :P

Or, OpenGL ES - which was my point.

Nevermind, you want to whine, please do. I won't interrupt any further.

/Filip

> ----- Original Message -----=20
> To: "Multiple recipients of list OPENGL-GAMEDEV-L"=20
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 1:25 PM
>=20
>=20
>> I didn't suggest for anyone not on linux to go linux, neither did I
>> suggest that MS would support the Gallium framework.
>>
>> I did suggest that if we want an alternative to whining, there is work
>> being done on hardware accelerated drivers for OGL outside nVidia HQ -
>> and someone with access to the Vista DDK could possibly plug that work
>> into the mature driver framework of windows. The linux/BSD versions of
>> the framework allready have people from Intel and AMD/ATI working on
>> them, so it's not as if it would be enthusiasts-only. The key would be
>> developer interest, and DDK accessibility. (MS made the DDK available
>> for free for 2000/XP, but I don't know about Vista.)
>>
>> /Filip
>>
>> Dan Partelly skrev:
>>> I highly doubt that anything OpenSource is the answer. Truth is, i=20
>>> wouldnt
>>> thouch Linux with a 8 feet yard fishing pole nowdays.
>>> OpenSource producs dont present to me too much appeal.
>>>
>>> Let alone the fact that Vista and other closed source OSs will never=20
>>> offer
>>> you video driver facilites to use a Galium framework. Why would they =
?
>>> they  estabilished driver framework are mature.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>>> To: "Multiple recipients of list OPENGL-GAMEDEV-L"
>>> <[email protected]>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 11:25 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>> It seems it's the lurkers' day today.
>>>>
>>>> The new driver framework used on free OSes, Gallium, could be of
>>>> interest here. Basically it's divided into 3 parts: The hardware par=
t,
>>>> the OS part and the lib frontend (ie OGL). So, assuming someone woul=
d be
>>>> interested - I think it would be possible to write a windows part fo=
r
>>>> the Gallium drivers. IIRC the newest ATI drivers, as well as the Nov=
eau
>>>> effort is implemented this way (and Intel?). Also, this would make i=
t
>>>> possible to build an OGL ES frontend to the hardware too.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously this wouldn't support the newest nVidia cards right away, =
but
>>>> with Intel and AMD/ATI being good with documentation - but I suppose
>>>> having a free OGL driver for windows might raise the incentive for
>>>> nVidia to open up a bit.
>>>>
>>>> /Filip
>>>>
>>>> Dan Partelly skrev:
>>>>>>> And I still remember an   nVidia exec (forget who) at CGDC holdin=
g a
>>>>>>> printout of their latest GL
>>>>>>> extension spec and telling the room they 'weren't going to keep d=
oing
>>>>>>> this forever'.
>>>>> Indeed, but they did so far , as opposed to ATI who practically doe=
snt
>>>>> give
>>>>> a shit about OpenGL. No extensions to expose advanced functionality=
 of
>>>>> the
>>>>> boards,
>>>>> serious bugs in GL drivers and the list can continue. So from this=20
>>>>> point
>>>>> of
>>>>> view Nvidia >> ATI. And it was one of the reasons I always told ppl=
 not
>>>>> to
>>>>> buy any kind of ATI products and many have listened, thanks god.
>>>>>
>>>>> Its understandable Nvidia doesnt want to do that forever, after all=
 its=20
>>>>> a
>>>>> great money sunk, especially when ARB keeps talking and failing to
>>>>> deliver
>>>>> year after year.
>>>>> What better money sink you want that endless talks and wasted time =
?
>>>>>
>>>>> ARB should wake up from his slumber before it too late.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>>>>> To: "Multiple recipients of list OPENGL-GAMEDEV-L"
>>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 3:15 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Delurking here to respond to this - I've always loved OpenGL, and =
our
>>>>>> current prototype is implemented using GL, or more specifically CG=
FX
>>>>>> over
>>>>>> GL.  What I've seen of 3.0 has added hiring a DirectX programmer t=
o my
>>>>>> plans for next year.  Its pretty obvious the ARB [still] doesn't c=
are
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> for the game industry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, the idea of forking GL as OGL-ES + DX10 features sounds=
=20
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> great model to keep GL as a viable cross platform game API.  The m=
ain
>>>>>> problem would be getting nVidia and ATI on board, which is complic=
ated
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> their ARB ties and the reasonable expectations of strong pushback =
from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ARB and Microsoft.  From a business side, ATI and nVidia would hav=
e a
>>>>>> hard
>>>>>> time justifying supporting the effort, as they already have a siza=
ble
>>>>>> sunk
>>>>>> investment in GL and DirectX drivers.  Seems like a chicken and eg=
g
>>>>>> problem - how to justify writing the (closed source) drivers for a
>>>>>> market
>>>>>> that doesn't exist yet. > Jon Mayo wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 3:30 AM, Sylvain Vignaud <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:>
>>>>>>> Lorenzo Pastrana wrote:>>>> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 03:40 -0800, Da=
n
>>>>>>> Partelly wrote:>>>>>> =EF=BB=BF yeah right, Truth is, OpenGl is b=
utchered
>>>>>>> slowly.>>>> Well, agreed.>> But Bill's post explicitly said that =
he
>>>>>>> knew
>>>>>>> _some_ think OpenGL is dead>> and all the snuff ... in order to a=
void
>>>>>>> those kind of replies not to call>> for them.>> All my post was a=
bout
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> that Sylvain's position (being so biased and>> definitive in addi=
tion
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be inappropriate) does nothing but harm.>> Well you would have to
>>>>>>> define
>>>>>>> "biased" here. If you knew me, you would know> how much I loved=20
>>>>>>> OpenGL.
>>>>>>> And I gave links to the OpenGL forums where lots of> 3D programme=
rs
>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> to use OGL did complain, and where I still post and help> people,=
 to
>>>>>>> support my point.>> And my previous message about OGL-ES was seri=
ous=20
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> only need this> interface plus some addition/extension to match=20
>>>>>>> D3D10+
>>>>>>> feature set and to> get rid of the obsolete calls. It wou!
>>>>>> ld!
>>>>>>>   probably be an easier start for lots> of people, driver-makers=20
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> have a much easier life, etc.>> Actually what we really need is=20
>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>> the ARB stop discussing forever in> closed committee, telling one
>>>>>>> thing,
>>>>>>> shutting up 1 year and a half then> doing the contrary, and thing=
s=20
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> that. =3D(>>> ----- FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:>
>>>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL>> -->=20
>>>>>>> Author:
>>>>>>> Sylvain Vignaud>  INET: [email protected]>
>>>>>>> Interesting idea about OpenGL ES. Is anyone willing to take that
>>>>>>> ideaand
>>>>>>> run with it? I believe Linux has some support for ES, from what I=
read
>>>>>>> about in a project called "gameBoXlinux" and "MyOS x-less".
>>>>>>> -- Jon Mayo<[email protected]>
>>>>>>> -----=20
>>>>>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>>>>>   http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----=20
>>>>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>>>>  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>> Author: Kerry Bonin
>>>>>>  INET: [email protected]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
>>>>>> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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>>>>>> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You ma=
y
>>>>>> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing=
).
>>>>> -----=20
>>>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>>>   http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>>>
>>>> -----=20
>>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>>  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>>
>>>> --=20
>>>> Author: Filip Joelsson
>>>>  INET: [email protected]
>>>>
>>>> Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>>>> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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>>>> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>>>
>>> -----=20
>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>   http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>
>> -----=20
>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>
>> --=20
>> Author: Filip Joelsson
>>  INET: [email protected]
>>
>> Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
>> to: [email protected] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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>> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).=20
>=20
>=20
> -----=20
> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>   http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>=20

-----=20
FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL

--=20
Author: Filip Joelsson
  INET: [email protected]

Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
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