Re: OpenGL 3.0

No, not oppinions my friend, years of experience with software.

Your proposal is complelty unrealistic.  Dreams. No need for a crystal ba=
ll.
You seem to live in a dreamworld of your own.








----- Original Message -----=20
To: "Multiple recipients of list OPENGL-GAMEDEV-L"=20
<[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 5:25 PM


> Dan Partelly skrev:
>> Not realistic.Open Source sucks.
>
> Opinion.
>
>> First, Youll never get full documentation
>> from ATI and Nvidia and other HW vendors  for their hardware , second,
>
> AMD/ATI and Intel do give quite a lot of documentation. Nvidia is a
> problem, but that problem will be remedied only if they percieve open
> documentation as giving them an edge.
>
>> such
>> a framerwork would be full of bugs,  would have bad support, and will
>> degenerate sooner or later into a nigtmare source tree to maintain.
>
> Would you pass me that crystal ball please? Mesa does not have these
> problems.
>
>> Above everything,  it does not solve the fundamanetal problem.  That=20
>> beeing
>> *THE STANDARD*. Thats managed by ARB, and whatever you implement in yo=
ur
>> framework, must be consistent with ARB, if want to call it OpenGl.=20
>> Otherwise
>> we can call it FantasyGl  :P
>
> Or, OpenGL ES - which was my point.
>
> Nevermind, you want to whine, please do. I won't interrupt any further.
>
> /Filip
>
>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>> To: "Multiple recipients of list OPENGL-GAMEDEV-L"
>> <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 1:25 PM
>>
>>
>>> I didn't suggest for anyone not on linux to go linux, neither did I
>>> suggest that MS would support the Gallium framework.
>>>
>>> I did suggest that if we want an alternative to whining, there is wor=
k
>>> being done on hardware accelerated drivers for OGL outside nVidia HQ =
-
>>> and someone with access to the Vista DDK could possibly plug that wor=
k
>>> into the mature driver framework of windows. The linux/BSD versions o=
f
>>> the framework allready have people from Intel and AMD/ATI working on
>>> them, so it's not as if it would be enthusiasts-only. The key would b=
e
>>> developer interest, and DDK accessibility. (MS made the DDK available
>>> for free for 2000/XP, but I don't know about Vista.)
>>>
>>> /Filip
>>>
>>> Dan Partelly skrev:
>>>> I highly doubt that anything OpenSource is the answer. Truth is, i
>>>> wouldnt
>>>> thouch Linux with a 8 feet yard fishing pole nowdays.
>>>> OpenSource producs dont present to me too much appeal.
>>>>
>>>> Let alone the fact that Vista and other closed source OSs will never
>>>> offer
>>>> you video driver facilites to use a Galium framework. Why would they=
 ?
>>>> they  estabilished driver framework are mature.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>>>> To: "Multiple recipients of list OPENGL-GAMEDEV-L"
>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 11:25 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It seems it's the lurkers' day today.
>>>>>
>>>>> The new driver framework used on free OSes, Gallium, could be of
>>>>> interest here. Basically it's divided into 3 parts: The hardware pa=
rt,
>>>>> the OS part and the lib frontend (ie OGL). So, assuming someone wou=
ld=20
>>>>> be
>>>>> interested - I think it would be possible to write a windows part f=
or
>>>>> the Gallium drivers. IIRC the newest ATI drivers, as well as the=20
>>>>> Noveau
>>>>> effort is implemented this way (and Intel?). Also, this would make =
it
>>>>> possible to build an OGL ES frontend to the hardware too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously this wouldn't support the newest nVidia cards right away,=
=20
>>>>> but
>>>>> with Intel and AMD/ATI being good with documentation - but I suppos=
e
>>>>> having a free OGL driver for windows might raise the incentive for
>>>>> nVidia to open up a bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Filip
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan Partelly skrev:
>>>>>>>> And I still remember an   nVidia exec (forget who) at CGDC holdi=
ng=20
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> printout of their latest GL
>>>>>>>> extension spec and telling the room they 'weren't going to keep=20
>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>> this forever'.
>>>>>> Indeed, but they did so far , as opposed to ATI who practically=20
>>>>>> doesnt
>>>>>> give
>>>>>> a shit about OpenGL. No extensions to expose advanced functionalit=
y=20
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> boards,
>>>>>> serious bugs in GL drivers and the list can continue. So from this
>>>>>> point
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> view Nvidia >> ATI. And it was one of the reasons I always told pp=
l=20
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> buy any kind of ATI products and many have listened, thanks god.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its understandable Nvidia doesnt want to do that forever, after al=
l=20
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> great money sunk, especially when ARB keeps talking and failing to
>>>>>> deliver
>>>>>> year after year.
>>>>>> What better money sink you want that endless talks and wasted time=
 ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ARB should wake up from his slumber before it too late.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>>>>>> To: "Multiple recipients of list OPENGL-GAMEDEV-L"
>>>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 3:15 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Delurking here to respond to this - I've always loved OpenGL, and=
=20
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> current prototype is implemented using GL, or more specifically C=
GFX
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> GL.  What I've seen of 3.0 has added hiring a DirectX programmer =
to=20
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> plans for next year.  Its pretty obvious the ARB [still] doesn't=20
>>>>>>> care
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> for the game industry.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That said, the idea of forking GL as OGL-ES + DX10 features sound=
s
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> great model to keep GL as a viable cross platform game API.  The=20
>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>> problem would be getting nVidia and ATI on board, which is=20
>>>>>>> complicated
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> their ARB ties and the reasonable expectations of strong pushback=
=20
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> ARB and Microsoft.  From a business side, ATI and nVidia would ha=
ve=20
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>> time justifying supporting the effort, as they already have a=20
>>>>>>> sizable
>>>>>>> sunk
>>>>>>> investment in GL and DirectX drivers.  Seems like a chicken and e=
gg
>>>>>>> problem - how to justify writing the (closed source) drivers for =
a
>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>> that doesn't exist yet. > Jon Mayo wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 3:30 AM, Sylvain Vignaud <[email protected]=
>
>>>>>>>> wrote:>
>>>>>>>> Lorenzo Pastrana wrote:>>>> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 03:40 -0800, D=
an
>>>>>>>> Partelly wrote:>>>>>> =EF=BB=BF yeah right, Truth is, OpenGl is =
butchered
>>>>>>>> slowly.>>>> Well, agreed.>> But Bill's post explicitly said that=
 he
>>>>>>>> knew
>>>>>>>> _some_ think OpenGL is dead>> and all the snuff ... in order to=20
>>>>>>>> avoid
>>>>>>>> those kind of replies not to call>> for them.>> All my post was=20
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> that Sylvain's position (being so biased and>> definitive in=20
>>>>>>>> addition
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be inappropriate) does nothing but harm.>> Well you would have t=
o
>>>>>>>> define
>>>>>>>> "biased" here. If you knew me, you would know> how much I loved
>>>>>>>> OpenGL.
>>>>>>>> And I gave links to the OpenGL forums where lots of> 3D programm=
ers
>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> to use OGL did complain, and where I still post and help> people=
,=20
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> support my point.>> And my previous message about OGL-ES was=20
>>>>>>>> serious
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> only need this> interface plus some addition/extension to match
>>>>>>>> D3D10+
>>>>>>>> feature set and to> get rid of the obsolete calls. It wou!
>>>>>>> ld!
>>>>>>>>   probably be an easier start for lots> of people, driver-makers
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> have a much easier life, etc.>> Actually what we really need is
>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>> the ARB stop discussing forever in> closed committee, telling on=
e
>>>>>>>> thing,
>>>>>>>> shutting up 1 year and a half then> doing the contrary, and thin=
gs
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> that. =3D(>>> ----- FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:>
>>>>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL>> -->
>>>>>>>> Author:
>>>>>>>> Sylvain Vignaud>  INET: [email protected]>
>>>>>>>> Interesting idea about OpenGL ES. Is anyone willing to take that
>>>>>>>> ideaand
>>>>>>>> run with it? I believe Linux has some support for ES, from what=20
>>>>>>>> Iread
>>>>>>>> about in a project called "gameBoXlinux" and "MyOS x-less".
>>>>>>>> -- Jon Mayo<[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> -----=20
>>>>>>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>>>>>>   http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----=20
>>>>>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>>>>>  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>> Author: Kerry Bonin
>>>>>>>  INET: [email protected]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
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>>>>>>> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).  You m=
ay
>>>>>>> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribin=
g).
>>>>>> -----=20
>>>>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>>>>   http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>>>>
>>>>> -----=20
>>>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>>>  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>>>
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Author: Filip Joelsson
>>>>>  INET: [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>> Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>>>>> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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>>>>
>>>> -----=20
>>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>>   http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>>
>>> -----=20
>>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>>  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>>
>>> --=20
>>> Author: Filip Joelsson
>>>  INET: [email protected]
>>>
>>> Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
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>>
>>
>> -----=20
>> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>>   http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>>
>
> -----=20
> FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
>  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL
>
> --=20
> Author: Filip Joelsson
>  INET: [email protected]
>
> Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).=20


-----=20
FAQ and OpenGL Resources at:
  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hills/9956/OpenGL

--=20
Author: Dan Partelly
  INET: [email protected]

Fat City Hosting, San Diego, California -- http://www.fatcity.com
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