Re: Requesting Other GM's Opinions
"Steph Mabie" <[email protected]> Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:55:15 -0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.gm |
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| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--Ea3-WoKSo-ZIFG1bQciL-rxZR1c8AR8qZFdeyGR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --- In [email protected], zendip18@... wrote: > > The rule book (and I am talking about all the various editions, as far=20 > as I know) is silent about whether an incorrect unit type designation > would, in and of itself, invalidate an order, as opposed to lack of a > unit type designation, which I believe is explicitly ruled not to > invalidate an order. The rulebook, in all its incarnations, also explicitly states that an order, no matter how poorly written, which can have only one legal meaning, must be followed. Bear in mind that A & F are English designations for the generally accepted (and official) pieces of the game (Army & Fleet). Could "F" stand for "Force?" Could "A" stand for "Armada?" It is plausible, in either case, that the A or F could stand for either type of unit, and without asking the player exactly what he meant, the GM cannot know.=20 And since asking a player what he meant beforehand is usually considered out of the question... =20 > For what it is worth, in my opinion, incorrect information is > qualitatively different (worse, if you will) than missing > information. >=20 And I'm on the other side of the fence on this one. Since there can only be one unit in each area, legally, there can only be one and only one legal meaning when a player names an area occupied by that player, no matter what unit designation is used -- he wants that unit to do something. If he happens to misorder it otherwise -- telling an army to move to sea, or a fleet inland, or affecting a space it can otherwise not affect (ie, A Lon - Ber), then fine. Poorly written? Very much so. Illegal? Not in my opinion. However, if it explicitly states in a houserule that the order would be considered illegal, then it doesn't matter what I, you, or any player think; it's illegal, end of story. :) Bear in mind, btw, that there could be another angle to this (though I admit that if the player in question were doing this, he'd have probably told the GM in private): Intentional Misorder I was GMing a tournament game, in which a player told me in advance he wanted to misorder a unit, and asked me if his order would qualify as such (I don't remember specifically, but I think it was Swe - Nor).=20 As I had stated in my houserules at the time that use of "Nor" would be illegal due to confusion issues, I told him it was okay. The adjudication came down, and one of the other players (who, as it happened, was Edi Birsan) pointed out that since "Swe - Nor" could have only one possible legal interpretation, it should have been considered a legal move. Which of course put me in a hard spo, since I knew the player was intentionally misordering, and had told him that his order would be a misorder (and if I had told him it wasn't, it would have been changed, as he told me in his original request), and so couldn't very well change the ruling on him after. So despite my being swayed to the other argument (and subsequently to my extremely lax interpretation of legal orders), the player whose order it was and I had to involve the appellate committee in a bit of subterfuge where publicly the order was appealled by the player, but in private it was a foregone conclusion that the order would remain ilegitimate. So perhaps publicly the player wants to make a fit, to make his illegal order more believable? But, as I said to begin, he probably would (or at least should) have let the GM know in private that that was his intention. --Ea3-WoKSo-ZIFG1bQciL-rxZR1c8AR8qZFdeyGR Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <!-- Network content --> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>--- In <a href="mailto:CAT23-GM%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-GM@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, zendip18@... wrote:<br> ><br> > The rule book (and I am talking about all the various editions, as far <br> > as I know) is silent about whether an incorrect unit type designation<br> > would, in and of itself, invalidate an order, as opposed to lack of a<br> > unit type designation, which I believe is explicitly ruled not to<br> > invalidate an order.<br> <br> The rulebook, in all its incarnations, also explicitly states that an<br> order, no matter how poorly written, which can have only one legal<br> meaning, must be followed.<br> <br> Bear in mind that A & F are English designations for the generally<br> accepted (and official) pieces of the game (Army & Fleet). Could "F"<br> stand for "Force?" Could "A" stand for "Armada?" It is plausible, in<br> either case, that the A or F could stand for either type of unit, and<br> without asking the player exactly what he meant, the GM cannot know. <br> And since asking a player what he meant beforehand is usually<br> considered out of the question...<br> <br> > For what it is worth, in my opinion, incorrect information is<br> > qualitatively different (worse, if you will) than missing<br> > information.<br> > <br> <br> And I'm on the other side of the fence on this one. Since there can<br> only be one unit in each area, legally, there can only be one and only<br> one legal meaning when a player names an area occupied by that player,<br> no matter what unit designation is used -- he wants that unit to do<br> something. If he happens to misorder it otherwise -- telling an army<br> to move to sea, or a fleet inland, or affecting a space it can<br> otherwise not affect (ie, A Lon - Ber), then fine. Poorly written?<br> Very much so. Illegal? Not in my opinion.<br> <br> However, if it explicitly states in a houserule that the order would<br> be considered illegal, then it doesn't matter what I, you, or any<br> player think; it's illegal, end of story. :)<br> <br> Bear in mind, btw, that there could be another angle to this (though I<br> admit that if the player in question were doing this, he'd have<br> probably told the GM in private): Intentional Misorder<br> <br> I was GMing a tournament game, in which a player told me in advance he<br> wanted to misorder a unit, and asked me if his order would qualify as<br> such (I don't remember specifically, but I think it was Swe - Nor). <br> As I had stated in my houserules at the time that use of "Nor" would<br> be illegal due to confusion issues, I told him it was okay. The<br> adjudication came down, and one of the other players (who, as it<br> happened, was Edi Birsan) pointed out that since "Swe - Nor" could<br> have only one possible legal interpretation, it should have been<br> considered a legal move. Which of course put me in a hard spo, since<br> I knew the player was intentionally misordering, and had told him that<br> his order would be a misorder (and if I had told him it wasn't, it<br> would have been changed, as he told me in his original request), and<br> so couldn't very well change the ruling on him after. So despite my<br> being swayed to the other argument (and subsequently to my extremely<br> lax interpretation of legal orders), the player whose order it was and<br> I had to involve the appellate committee in a bit of subterfuge where<br> publicly the order was appealled by the player, but in private it was<br> a foregone conclusion that the order would remain ilegitimate. So<br> perhaps publicly the player wants to make a fit, to make his illegal<br> order more believable? But, as I said to begin, he probably would (or<br> at least should) have let the GM know in private that that was his<br> intention.<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span> <!-- Start the section with Message In topic --> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <span class="left"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/message/5546;_ylc=X3oDMTMzbG05MTdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU2NgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExODQ3NjMzMjIEdHBjSWQDNTU0Ng--"> Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>) </span> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvb3NycWI3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNTU2NgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExODQ3NjMzMjI-?act=reply&messageNum=5566"> <span class="bld"> Reply </span> (via web post) </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMGJyN2szBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTg0NzYzMzIy" class="bld"> Start a new topic </a> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMDZraW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMTg0NzYzMzIy">Messages</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlamxiNzRyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDc2MzMyMg--">Files</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcGdrN3FmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMTg0NzYzMzIy">Photos</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYmNpaThzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDc2MzMyMg--">Links</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJiNW43cGhjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDc2MzMyMg--">Database</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNWxiZXUxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NDc2MzMyMg--">Polls</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbWJ0dHJhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMTg0NzYzMzIy">Members</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-GM/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjZW52Y3BnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzExODQ3NjMzMjI-">Calendar</a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- Do not have place to put it yet --> <div id="ygrp-grft"> </div> <!-- yahoo logo --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjMTVoZDY4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MDI2OQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzExODQ3NjMzMjI-"> <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! 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