Re: A rules questions
Luis <[email protected]> Sun, 03 Aug 2008 19:17:59 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.new-games,gmane.games.diplomacy.cat23.results.twelve-hundred |
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--D6S9ufYffjLvIDTePUfEsxkC7Di21mgccxQA0PR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No. I didn't check it. I was so sure that my interpretation was correct that I did not even check. RP is fine, it's just Luis who was wrong. Luis. David E. Cohen wrote: > Then Realpolitik has a bug. Rule 1 states that support is possible > without regard to coast. Rule 2 talks about the support being legal > if the province, *not* the coast, could be moved to by the supporting > unit. The two rules are consistent, and are not limited by coasts. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luis" <[email protected]> > To: "Babak Talebi" <[email protected]> > Cc: "1200group" <[email protected]>; > <[email protected]>; "Douglas Kent" > <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 6:31 AM > Subject: Re: [CAT23-Ngame] A rules questions > > >> Void. Gascony does not border Spain/sc and you can only support into >> provinces you are able to move in directly; for fleet puprposes, that >> affects to "semi-provinces" (coasts) too. Would it be A Gas S... then it >> would be perfectly valid. >> >> In doubt (and only for Standard Dip), run Realpolitik and see what >> happens. In this case it's void. >> >> Luis. >> >> >> Babak Talebi wrote: >> >>> Friends - >>> >>> Two dip players of some experience have come to a disagreement on a >>> rules >>> question. If you could shed light on this situation, it would be most >>> appreciated. >>> >>> *The Situation:* >>> >>> F Por to Spa(sc) >>> F Gas S F Por to Spa(sc) >>> >>> *The Question:* >>> ** >>> is the order for F Gas *Void* or *Valid* >>> >>> *The Rules:* >>> >>> On page 7 in the 4th edition of the rules ( >>> http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf >>> <http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf>) >>> two >>> relevant quotes can be found... >>> >>> 1) "A fleet that can move to a province with two separate coasts (A >>> fleet >>> in the Mid-Atlantic for example) can support another Army or Fleet >>> into that >>> province (in this case Spain) without regard to separate >>> coastlines." (2nd >>> paragraph - 2nd column) >>> >>> 2) "The province to which a unit is providing support must be one to >>> which >>> the supporting unit could have legally moved during that turn. >>> ...Likewise a >>> Fleet in Rome could not support a unit's move to Venice because, >>> although >>> adjacent by land, the Fleet can not move to Venice from Rome." (1st >>> paragraph - 2nd column) >>> >>> *The Arguments:* >>> ** >>> one reading of these rules is that "If you can move to a province >>> you can >>> support ANY action in that province. period". ie - the fleet in Gas can >>> support Por to Spa(sc) because it can itself move to Spa thus making >>> the >>> support order *Valid*. >>> >>> the second reading is that since Spa(sc) is not a province that the >>> supporting unit (F Gas) 'could have legally moved' to, it is thus an >>> illegal >>> support and therefore *Void*. >>> >>> I leave this earth-shattering question to these august bodies of >>> wisdom on >>> Cat23 and look forward to reading various judicious opinions on the >>> matter. Has this been resolved elsewhere? >>> >>> I am told by my fellow diplomacy player that he is 100% positive of his >>> position and since I hold him and his experience in high regard, I am >>> inclined to agree with him - but felt that due to my minor doubt, I >>> should >>> consult with the rest of the village elders first. (ps. I still have >>> not >>> told you all which position I have taken in this) >>> >>> Babak >>> >>> . >>> >>> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --D6S9ufYffjLvIDTePUfEsxkC7Di21mgccxQA0PR Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #ffffff;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 470px; margin:0; padding:0 25px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>No. I didn't check it. I was so sure that my interpretation was correct <br> that I did not even check. RP is fine, it's just Luis who was wrong.<br> <br> Luis.<br> <br> David E. Cohen wrote:<br> <br> > Then Realpolitik has a bug. Rule 1 states that support is possible <br> > without regard to coast. Rule 2 talks about the support being legal <br> > if the province, *not* the coast, could be moved to by the supporting <br> > unit. The two rules are consistent, and are not limited by coasts.<br> ><br> ><br> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luis" <<a href="mailto:lialdamiz%40euskalnet.net">lialdamiz@euskalnet<wbr>.net</a>><br> > To: "Babak Talebi" <<a href="mailto:babaktalebi%40gmail.com">babaktalebi@<wbr>gmail.com</a>><br> > Cc: "1200group" <<a href="mailto:CAT23-1200%40yahoogroups.com">CAT23-1200@yahoogro<wbr>ups.com</a>>; <br> > <<a href="mailto:Cat23-ngame%40yahoogroups.com">Cat23-ngame@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>>; "Douglas Kent" <br> > <<a href="mailto:diplomacyworld%40yahoo.com">diplomacyworld@<wbr>yahoo.com</a>>; <<a href="mailto:dipknight%40yahoogroups.com">dipknight@yahoogrou<wbr>ps.com</a>><br> > Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 6:31 AM<br> > Subject: Re: [CAT23-Ngame] A rules questions<br> ><br> ><br> >> Void. Gascony does not border Spain/sc and you can only support into<br> >> provinces you are able to move in directly; for fleet puprposes, that<br> >> affects to "semi-provinces" (coasts) too. Would it be A Gas S... then it<br> >> would be perfectly valid.<br> >><br> >> In doubt (and only for Standard Dip), run Realpolitik and see what<br> >> happens. In this case it's void.<br> >><br> >> Luis.<br> >><br> >><br> >> Babak Talebi wrote:<br> >><br> >>> Friends -<br> >>><br> >>> Two dip players of some experience have come to a disagreement on a <br> >>> rules<br> >>> question. If you could shed light on this situation, it would be most<br> >>> appreciated.<br> >>><br> >>> *The Situation:*<br> >>><br> >>> F Por to Spa(sc)<br> >>> F Gas S F Por to Spa(sc)<br> >>><br> >>> *The Question:*<br> >>> **<br> >>> is the order for F Gas *Void* or *Valid*<br> >>><br> >>> *The Rules:*<br> >>><br> >>> On page 7 in the 4th edition of the rules (<br> >>> <a href="http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf">http://www.diplomac<wbr>y-archive.<wbr>com/resources/<wbr>rulebooks/<wbr>2000AH4th.<wbr>pdf</a><br> >>> <<a href="http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf">http://www.diplomac<wbr>y-archive.<wbr>com/resources/<wbr>rulebooks/<wbr>2000AH4th.<wbr>pdf</a>>) <br> >>> two<br> >>> relevant quotes can be found...<br> >>><br> >>> 1) "A fleet that can move to a province with two separate coasts (A <br> >>> fleet<br> >>> in the Mid-Atlantic for example) can support another Army or Fleet<br> >>> into that<br> >>> province (in this case Spain) without regard to separate <br> >>> coastlines." (2nd<br> >>> paragraph - 2nd column)<br> >>><br> >>> 2) "The province to which a unit is providing support must be one to <br> >>> which<br> >>> the supporting unit could have legally moved during that turn.<br> >>> ...Likewise a<br> >>> Fleet in Rome could not support a unit's move to Venice because, <br> >>> although<br> >>> adjacent by land, the Fleet can not move to Venice from Rome." (1st<br> >>> paragraph - 2nd column)<br> >>><br> >>> *The Arguments:*<br> >>> **<br> >>> one reading of these rules is that "If you can move to a province <br> >>> you can<br> >>> support ANY action in that province. period". ie - the fleet in Gas can<br> >>> support Por to Spa(sc) because it can itself move to Spa thus making <br> >>> the<br> >>> support order *Valid*.<br> >>><br> >>> the second reading is that since Spa(sc) is not a province that the<br> >>> supporting unit (F Gas) 'could have legally moved' to, it is thus an<br> >>> illegal<br> >>> support and therefore *Void*.<br> >>><br> >>> I leave this earth-shattering question to these august bodies of <br> >>> wisdom on<br> >>> Cat23 and look forward to reading various judicious opinions on the<br> >>> matter. Has this been resolved elsewhere?<br> >>><br> >>> I am told by my fellow diplomacy player that he is 100% positive of his<br> >>> position and since I hold him and his experience in high regard, I am<br> >>> inclined to agree with him - but felt that due to my minor doubt, I <br> >>> should<br> >>> consult with the rest of the village elders first. (ps. I still have <br> >>> not<br> >>> told you all which position I have taken in this)<br> >>><br> >>> Babak<br> >>><br> >>> .<br> >>><br> >>><br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> >><br> >><br> ><br> ><br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span> <!-- Start the section with Message In topic --> <div id="ygrp-actbar"> <span class="left"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/message/6693;_ylc=X3oDMTMzMXNpbG44BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNjcwMARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3ODUyMDUEdHBjSWQDNjY5Mw--"> Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">8</span>) </span> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJvOXRubGhtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEbXNnSWQDNjcwMARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3ODUyMDU-?act=reply&messageNum=6700"> <span class="bld"> Reply </span> (via web post) </a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMTFxZzhtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjE3Nzg1MjA1" class="bld"> Start a new topic </a> </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vitnav"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMGVoaDFsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbXNncwRzdGltZQMxMjE3Nzg1MjA1">Messages</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcjJkdm9tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZmlsZXMEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc4NTIwNQ--">Files</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWk4MWJpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcGhvdARzdGltZQMxMjE3Nzg1MjA1">Photos</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZG0zdHYwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbGlua3MEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc4NTIwNQ--">Links</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJiNTQwcmhrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZGIEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc4NTIwNQ--">Database</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN2RlcHRuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcG9sbHMEc3RpbWUDMTIxNzc4NTIwNQ--">Polls</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNDNycTh0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbWJycwRzdGltZQMxMjE3Nzg1MjA1">Members</a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAT23-Ngame/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJjZXJoMzczBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDY2FsBHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3ODUyMDU-">Calendar</a> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-grft"> </div> <!-- yahoo logo --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-ft"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjczZ1YmI2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM2MTM5MgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNTcxNDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzEyMTc3ODUyMDU-"> <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! 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