Re: FWB: Foss with benefits

Charles Cossé <[email protected]> Thu, 5 Feb 2015 01:55:16 -0700
Newsgroups gmane.org.fsf.education.europe
Message-ID <CABtoULjBv-URkCiLsn=MdRMqTCL-07QohCQgRNmPNxp6ftaiZw@mail.gmail.com>
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Hi Cecilie,

Thanks for your latest inputs.  I'm glad we've ironed-out the semantics and
misunderstandings.  I will revise my terminology on the homepage to reflect
the good advice so-far in this conversation.  I am UTC-7 here, i.e. 2am, so
please replace "non-commercial"  with "GPL-v3 / FOSS" until I have the
opportunity tomorrow morning to make those revisions.  Thank you, again,
for your input.

Charles


On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:39 AM, L.Cecilie Wian <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 9:29 AM, L.Cecilie Wian <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Charles Coss=C3=A9 <[email protected]> wr=
ote:
>>
>>> Thank you Michael :)
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Michael Kesper <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Am 05.02.2015 um 08:12 schrieb L.Cecilie Wian:
>>>>
>>>>> Now I may sound like I got bitten by Richard, but,  you keep saying
>>>>> "open source",  not "free software". That matters. At least when you
>>>>> send out  on this list.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will probably take a look at your project,  but it doesn't feel lik=
e
>>>>> you are listening to marko . And you should.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please please read your comments again.
>>>> I'm very sad to hear such harsh comments when somebody proposes a tool
>>>> for propagating knowledge about Free Software.
>>>>
>>>
>> I meant to be strict, not rude.
>> And i was annoyed by phrasing, where developers and parents was invited
>> to the discussion, not everyone on the list, thus disregarding the input
>> you got. Glad that was not your intention.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> @Charles: Thanks for the info about your project!
>>>> I think it's better to not create false dichotomies in people's mind:
>>>> - Free Software (aka open source) is always commercially useable,
>>>> that's freedom 0
>>>> - FSFE absolutely encourages building business models on creating,
>>>> spreading, studying, using or improving Free Software!
>>>> - As there's no free lunch, you've got to have some way to accept mone=
y
>>>> if you want to build a sustaining infrastructure
>>>>
>>>> So, I'd cut out the "non-commercial" attribute and would paraphrase it
>>>> differently, better explaining what you mean.
>>>>
>>>
>> It looks like i'm missing an email here?
>>
>> Anyway, i'll go a little back and talk a littlebit about the semantics,
>> because when getting into EDU what seems like a detail is huge.
>> The non-comercial part is at first glance a good way of ensuring no-one
>> takes your good ideas and run of with them, while ensuring the intended
>> audience get to use the software. However be aware that a lot of schools
>> and educators are actually in private sector and NC in a licence keeps t=
hem
>> from being allowed to use it, b/c they make money out of education. The
>> other way to go about it is the GPL, and since you say you want that i
>> think we are getting somewhere intressting.
>>
>> I'll have a closer look at your project now.
>>
>> When it comes to the very little amount of edu-software (on the list, bu=
t
>> also everywhere else), it is so b/c it is a really hard thing to do. Not
>> only to make technically a good solution, but one that interact with hum=
ans
>> with edu in mind. However it is not impossible.
>>
>>
> By the way, i think it is a good idea to take the inputs about the
> software perhaps directly or via videoconferance. So we don't fill
> everyones inbox with technical details. Or?
>
>
>
> --
> Cecilie Wian
>
> "A ship is safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."*- Grace
> Hopper / William G.T. Shedd*
>
> _______________________________________________
> European "Free Software in Education" mailing list
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-eu
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><span class=3D"im">Hi Cecilie,<br><br></span></d=
iv><span class=3D"im">Thanks for your latest inputs.=C2=A0 I&#39;m glad we&=
#39;ve ironed-out the semantics and misunderstandings.=C2=A0 I will revise =
my terminology on the homepage to reflect the good advice so-far in this co=
nversation.=C2=A0 I am UTC-7 here, i.e. 2am, so please replace &quot;non-co=
mmercial&quot;=C2=A0 with &quot;GPL-v3 / FOSS&quot; until I have the opport=
unity tomorrow morning to make those revisions.=C2=A0 Thank you, again, for=
 your input.<br><br></span></div><span class=3D"im">Charles<br></span><div>=
<div><span class=3D"im"><br></span><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:39 AM, L.Cecilie Wian <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">l=
[email protected]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 9:=
29 AM, L.Cecilie Wian <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:likevel.katla=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Thu, Feb=
 5, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Charles Coss=C3=A9 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
Thank you Michael :)<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Michael Kesper <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">mkesper@fsfe.=
org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex">Hi all,<br>
<br>
Am 05.02.2015 um 08:12 schrieb L.Cecilie Wian:<span><span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Now I may sound like I got bitten by Richard, but,=C2=A0 you keep saying<br=
>
&quot;open source&quot;,=C2=A0 not &quot;free software&quot;. That matters.=
 At least when you<br>
send out=C2=A0 on this list.<br>
<br>
I will probably take a look at your project,=C2=A0 but it doesn&#39;t feel =
like<br>
you are listening to marko . And you should.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span></span>
Please please read your comments again.<br>
I&#39;m very sad to hear such harsh comments when somebody proposes a tool =
for propagating knowledge about Free Software.<br></blockquote></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I meant to be strict, not rude.=C2=
=A0</div><div>And i was annoyed by phrasing, where developers and parents w=
as invited to the discussion, not everyone on the list, thus disregarding t=
he input you got. Glad that was not your intention.=C2=A0</div><span><div><=
br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
@Charles: Thanks for the info about your project!<br>
I think it&#39;s better to not create false dichotomies in people&#39;s min=
d:<br>
- Free Software (aka open source) is always commercially useable, that&#39;=
s freedom 0<br>
- FSFE absolutely encourages building business models on creating, spreadin=
g, studying, using or improving Free Software!<br>
- As there&#39;s no free lunch, you&#39;ve got to have some way to accept m=
oney if you want to build a sustaining infrastructure<br>
<br>
So, I&#39;d cut out the &quot;non-commercial&quot; attribute and would para=
phrase it differently, better explaining what you mean.<br></blockquote></d=
iv></div></blockquote></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div>It =
looks like i&#39;m missing an email here?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Anyway, i&#39;ll go a little back=
 and talk a littlebit about the semantics, because when getting into EDU wh=
at seems like a detail is huge.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">The n=
on-comercial part is at first glance a good way of ensuring no-one takes yo=
ur good ideas and run of with them, while ensuring the intended audience ge=
t to use the software. However be aware that a lot of schools and educators=
 are actually in private sector and NC in a licence keeps them from being a=
llowed to use it, b/c they make money out of education. The other way to go=
 about it is the GPL, and since you say you want that i think we are gettin=
g somewhere intressting.=C2=A0<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I&#39;ll have a closer look at your project no=
w.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a">When it comes to the very little amount of edu-software (on the list, bu=
t also everywhere else), it is so b/c it is a really hard thing to do. Not =
only to make technically a good solution, but one that interact with humans=
 with edu in mind. However it is not impossible.=C2=A0<span><font color=3D"=
#888888"><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div></font></span></div></div></block=
quote><div><br></div></div></div><div>By the way, i think it is a good idea=
 to take the inputs about the software perhaps directly or via videoconfera=
nce. So we don&#39;t fill everyones inbox with technical details. Or?</div>=
</div><span class=3D""><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div>Cecilie Wian<br><br><h1 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 15px;col=
or:rgb(24,24,24);font-weight:normal;padding:0px;font-size:14px;font-family:=
Georgia,&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;line-height:18px">&quot;A ship is s=
afe in harbor, but that&#39;s not what ships are for.&quot;</h1><h1 style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 15px;color:rgb(24,24,24);font-weight:normal;padding:0px;=
font-size:14px;font-family:Georgia,&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;line-hei=
ght:18px"><i style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:small;line-height:normal">- Grace Hopper /=
=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:small;line-height:no=
rmal">William G.T. Shedd</span></i></h1></div></div></div>
</span></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
European &quot;Free Software in Education&quot; mailing list<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-eu" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-eu</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>

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