Re: What is bias? (Re: should we continue?)
Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]> Sun, 13 Aug 2017 17:03:58 +0000
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--===============7039179763424800128== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CO2PR01MB204045C2ECC0A650620B3FE5C88F0CO2PR01MB2040prod_" --_000_CO2PR01MB204045C2ECC0A650620B3FE5C88F0CO2PR01MB2040prod_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sir, the kind of strong views that you have expressed is why I am afraid of the left and what its stands far. Exactly for this reason we have freedom of speech: to protect a speaker from those who sit in the judgement of what constitutes an acceptable speech and what does not. Regarding the issue at hand: James Damore was not fired immediately. He was fired , per his interview, o= nly after his memo went viral inside GOOGLE, and suddenly, the workers who had been feeling uncomfortable by Google's workplace practices but did not question them, found a voice. When google realized that James Damore's memo was gaining acceptance and had become a topic of water cooler talk, he was fired, as an afterthought. What happened to Googles diversity of thought? See this cartoon: http://ibankcoin.com/zeropointnow/files/2017/08/app2.png [http://ibankcoin.com/zeropointnow/files/2017/08/app2.png] I do not understand why did you have to bring Misogyny and White supremacis= t in this discussion. Without knowing what you mean by these words, I can say that this discussion is not about women or whites, but impact of googles d= iversity practices. Think about these: 1. There are some good woman programmers, but not all woman programmers = are equally good or fit for a job. Why insist on hiring those women not fit= for job? 2. There are some good male programmers though not all male programmers= are equally good or fit for a job. Should we not hire those male programme= rs who are really good? 3. In the last 25 years, the workplace mix in Silicon Valley has changed= . Lesser white Americans and lot more non-white. Does it mean white Americans do not know how to do a technology job? Would that not be most ignorant th= ing to say given that semiconductor and computer industry was created and operated mo= stly by white workers for the first 50 years of its existence. Hiring is a complex decisions which depends upon many things including the = ability of candidate, availability of candidate ( can the candidate do something else better? This idea is also = known as opportunity cost), what the job pays , and cost of doing a job (like relocating to a different= town, working 48 hours a day). Is it morally correct to force a manager to hire a person (based on gender = or race) who is otherwise not the best candidate to do the job ? What impact can such hiring have on the barely staffed teams working on ti= ght deadlines when they are forced to deal with a non-performing team member who was hired to meet diversity t= arget? ________________________________ From: India-gii <india-gii-bounces+pandey=3Dhotmail.com-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]= > on behalf of Kiritkumar Lathia <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 1:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [india-gii] What is bias? (Re: should we continue?) Freedom of speech does not mean misogyny and it is an abomination to defend= this; the same way defending white superamist in the name of "freedom of s= peech". Sorry - I have strong views that all are created equal and specially in IT = industry women have contributed a lot more than given credit for - look at = the Apollo Space programme - please go and see the movie "Hidden figures" = (easier for you I guess) or read about Ada Lovelece. The fired engineer deserves even worse and I hope no private industry hires= him for such misogyny! Misogyny is a kind of hate speech - not freedom of = speech! Get real!! Best wishes, On 13 August 2017 at 05:45, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]<mailto:pan= [email protected]>> wrote: Google (rather Sundar Pichai ) just went out of its way to confirm the worst fears about the bias at Google and its adherence to the ideas of the extremist left. A few days ago, Google fired an employee who had in a company memo questioned diversity practices and its impact on quality of hires and work at Google. Clearly Sundar failed in his first major PR challenge as a CEO at Goggle. I would suggest him to immediately resign for making this mistake. The freedom of speech and diversity of opinion is sacrosanct in this country. A company that started with motto " Be no Evil", suddenly appears everything that it once opposed. Besides that, Google Brand stands severely damaged. This happens just as concerns are growing that Youtube (a Google product) targets the conservative video bloggers by denying them profits from their videos and placing them in an unfavorable position in search results. The worst thing to happen, if Google keeps acting as a thought police, is politicians joining hand and starting to regulate Google as a as a utility with equal opportunity to everyone just govt regulates some private property used for public purpose. I recall the Google's hiring practices from its early days in late 1990s and early 2000s. It used to have a big bill board on highway 101 in Silicon Valley with some complex mathematical problem, and anyone with a solution to the problem was urged to call google for a job. They also used to have cards with complex mathematic= al problem inside technical magazines to solve and get hired. They used to hire the best and the smartest. Watch an interview with James Damore, the employee who was fired by Google for speaking his mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ds4WoeOkj2Ng Here is an article that covers some of the reactions to this matter. The headline is a little provocative, but should not be surprising given the left inclination of "The Hill". http://thehill.com/search/site/james%20damore Sincerely, Ratnendra Pandey ________________________________ From: India-gii <india-gii-bounces+pandey=3Dhotmail.com-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]= <mailto:hotmail.com-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]>> on behalf of Arun Mehta <arun.meh= [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 4:15 AM To: Sunil Chandra Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [india-gii] What is bias? (Re: should we continue?) Bias is one of many factors that have an impact on the reliability of infor= mation. Anything posted here is critically examined by experts. So, if it p= asses muster here, it is more trustworthy, IMO. Arun Mehta On Apr 21, 2017 3:55 PM, "Sunil Chandra" <[email protected]<mailto:ch= [email protected]>> wrote: How do you define bias? Is our own thinking unbiased? This question has troubled me many times in past but haven't found the righ= t answer. Since, your statement brings an interesting connection between th= is list's purpose and my quest, it gives me a reason to raise this topic he= re. Sunil On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 4:32 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]<mailto= :[email protected]>> wrote: Thanks for saving me from going back to Facebook or Whatsapp. I have stopped patronizing Facebook and Google to the extent I can since th= ey starting inserting bias in their algorithms to influence the elections i= n favor of the candidate that lost. I do not trust google searches to give me an unbiased results. And I have = not visited my Facebook account for years. Sincerely, Ratnendra Pandey _______________________________________________ India-gii mailing list India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]<mailto:India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]> https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii _______________________________________________ India-gii mailing list India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]<mailto:India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]> https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii --_000_CO2PR01MB204045C2ECC0A650620B3FE5C88F0CO2PR01MB2040prod_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> <style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margi= n-bottom:0;} --></style> </head> <body dir=3D"ltr"> <div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font= -family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;" dir=3D"ltr"> <p>Sir, the kind of strong views that you have expressed is why</p> <p>I am afraid of the left and what its stands far. Exactl= y for </p> <p>this reason we have freedom of speech: to protect </p> <p>a speaker from those who sit in the judgement of what </p> <p>constitutes an acceptable speech and what does not. </p> <p><br> </p> <p>Regarding the issue at hand:</p> <p><br> </p> <p>James Damore was not fired immediately. He was fired , per his interview= , only</p> <p>after his memo went viral inside GOOGLE, and suddenly,</p> <p>the workers who had been feeling uncomfortable by Google= 's workplace</p> <p>practices but did not question them, found a voice. When goo= gle realized</p> <p>that James Damore's memo was gaining acceptance and</p> <p>had become a topic of water cooler talk, he was fired, as an afterthough= t<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">.</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">What happened to Googles diversity of t= hought?</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">See this cartoon:</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><a href=3D"http://ibankcoin.com/zeropoi= ntnow/files/2017/08/app2.png" class=3D"OWAAutoLink" id=3D"LPlnk154490" prev= iewremoved=3D"true">http://ibankcoin.com/zeropointnow/files/2017/08/app2.pn= g</a></p> <p><img style=3D"max-width: 99.9%;" src=3D"http://ibankcoin.com/zeropointno= w/files/2017/08/app2.png"></p> <br> </span> <p></p> <p><br> </p> <p><br> </p> <p><br> </p> <p>I do not understand why did you have to bring Misogyny and White suprema= cist in this discussion.</p> <p>Without knowing what you mean by these words, I can say</p> <p>that this discussion is not about women or whites, but impact of&n= bsp;googles diversity practices.</p> <p><br> </p> <p>Think about these:</p> <p><br> </p> <p></p> <ol style=3D"margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"> <li><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"></span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;= ">There are some good woman programmers, but not all woman programmers are = equally good or fit for a job. Why insist on hiring those women not fit for= job?</span></li><li><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">There are some good m= ale programmers though not all male </span>programmers<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> are equally good o= r fit for a job. Should we not hire those male programmers who are really g= ood?</span><br> </li><li><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">In the last 25 years, the </span>= workplace<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> mix in Silicon Valley has c= hanged. Lesser</span></li></ol> <span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">white </span><span style=3D"font-size: 12p= t;">Americans</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> and lot more non= -white. Does it mean white Americans</span><br> <span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">do not know how to do a technology job? &n= bsp;Would that not be most ignorant thing to say</span> <p></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">given that semiconductor and = </span>computer <span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">industry was created = and operated mostly by</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">white workers for the first 50 years of= its </span> <span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">existence</span><span style=3D"font-size: = 12pt;">. </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Hiring is a complex decisions which dep= ends upon many things including the ability of candidate, </span>availability<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> of</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">candidate ( can the candidate do <= /span>something<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> else better? This ide= a is also known as opportunity cost), </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">what the job pays , and cost = of doing a job (like relocating to a different town, working 48 hours a day= ).</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Is it morally correct to force a manage= r to hire a person (based on gender or race) who is otherwise&nb= sp;not the best candidate to do the job </span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">?</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">What impact can </span><span style= =3D"font-size: 12pt;">such hiring have on the barely </span>staffed<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> teams working on = tight deadlines when they are forced</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">to deal with a non-performing team memb= er who was hired to meet diversity target?</span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></p> <p><br> </p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"></span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></p> <p><br> </p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"></span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></p> <p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br> </span></p> <p><br> </p> <p><br> </p> <br> <br> <div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co= lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> India-gii <india-g= ii-bounces+pandey=3Dhotmail.com-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]> on behalf of Ki= ritkumar Lathia <[email protected]><br> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 13, 2017 1:55 AM<br> <b>To:</b> [email protected]<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [india-gii] What is bias? (Re: should we continue?)</fo= nt> <div> </div> </div> <div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div> <div> <div>Freedom of speech does not mean misogyny and it is an abomination to d= efend this; the same way defending white superamist in the name of "fr= eedom of speech".</div> <div><br> </div> Sorry - I have strong views that all are created equal and specially in IT = industry women have contributed a lot more than given credit for - look at = the Apollo Space programme - please go and see the movie "Hidden= figures" (easier for you I guess) or read about Ada Lovelece.</div> <div><br> </div> The fired engineer deserves even worse and I hope no private industry hires= him for such misogyny! Misogyny is a kind of hate speech - not freedom of = speech! Get real!!<br> <br> </div> Best wishes,<br> </div> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 13 August 2017 at 05:45, Ratnendra Pandey <sp= an dir=3D"ltr"> <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">pandey@hotmail.= com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1= px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div id=3D"m_-1590698150933995178divtagdefaultwrapper" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D= "font-size:12pt; color:#000000; font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif"> <p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Google (rather Sundar Pichai ) just went = out of its way to </span><br> </p> <div>confirm the worst fears about the bias at Google and its&n= bsp;</div> <div>adherence to the ideas of the extremist left. </div> <div><br> </div> <div>A few days ago, Google fired an employee who had in a company </d= iv> <div>memo questioned diversity practices and its impact on quality of = </div> <div>hires and work at Google.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Clearly Sundar failed in his first major PR challenge as a CEO </= div> <div>at Goggle. I would suggest him to immediately resign for making <= /div> <div>this mistake. The freedom of speech and diversity of </div> <div>opinion is sacrosanct in this country. A company </div> <div>that started with motto " Be no Evil", suddenly</div> <div>appears everything that it once opposed. </div> <div><br> </div> <div>Besides that, Google Brand stands severely damaged.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>This happens just as concerns are growing that Youtube (a Google = product)</div> <div>targets the conservative video bloggers</div> <div>by denying them profits from their videos and </div> <div>placing them in an unfavorable position in search results.<= /div> <div><br> </div> <div>The worst thing to happen, if Google keeps acting</div> <div>as a thought police, is politicians joining hand = and starting </div> <div>to regulate Google as a <span style=3D"font-size:12pt">as a utili= ty with equal opportunity to</span></div> <div><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">everyone just govt regulates some = private property used for public purpose.</span></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>I recall the Google's hiring practices from its early days in </d= iv> <div>late 1990s and early 2000s. It used to have a big bill boa= rd on </div> <div>highway 101 in Silicon Valley with some complex mathematical </di= v> <div>problem, and anyone with a solution to the problem was urged to <= /div> <div>call google for a job. They also used to have cards <span style= =3D"font-size:12pt">with complex mathematical problem <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Appl= e Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe U= I Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols; font-size:16px"> inside technical magazines <span style=3D"font-size:12pt">to so= lve </span></div> </span></div> <div>and get hired. They used to hire the best and the smartest. = </div> <div><br> </div> <div>Watch an interview with James Damore, the employee who was fired = </div> <div>by Google for speaking his mind.</div> <div><br> </div> <div><a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ds4WoeOkj2Ng" target=3D"_b= lank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=3Ds4WoeOkj2Ng</a></div> <div><br> </div> <div>Here is an article that covers some of the reactions to this </di= v> <div>matter. The headline is a little provocative, but should not be <= /div> <div>surprising given the left inclination of "The Hill".</div> <div><br> </div> <div><a href=3D"http://thehill.com/search/site/james%20damore" class=3D"m_-= 1590698150933995178OWAAutoLink" id=3D"m_-1590698150933995178LPlnk487535" ta= rget=3D"_blank">http://thehill.com/search/<wbr>site/james%20damore</a><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>Sincerely,</div> <div>Ratnendra Pandey</div> <br> <br> <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <hr style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%"> <div id=3D"m_-1590698150933995178divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font color=3D"= #000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>= India-gii <india-gii-bounces+pandey=3D<a href=3D"mailto:hotmail.com= @lists.india-gii.org" target=3D"_blank">hotm<wbr>ail.com-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]= g</a>> on behalf of Arun Mehta <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target= =3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>><br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 21, 2017 4:15 AM<br> <b>To:</b> Sunil Chandra<br> <b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">ind= [email protected]</a><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [india-gii] What is bias? (Re: should we continue?)</fo= nt> <div> </div> </div> <div> <p dir=3D"ltr">Bias is one of many factors that have an impact on the relia= bility of information. Anything posted here is critically examined by exper= ts. So, if it passes muster here, it is more trustworthy, IMO.<br> Arun Mehta</p> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Apr 21, 2017 3:55 PM, "Sunil Chandra&quo= t; <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">chandra= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1= px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr">How do you define bias? <div><br> </div> <div>Is our own thinking unbiased?</div> <div><br> </div> <div>This question has troubled me many times in past but haven't found the= right answer. Since, your statement brings an interesting connection betwe= en this list's purpose and my quest, it gives me a reason to raise this top= ic here.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Sunil<br> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 4:32 AM, Ratnendra Pandey= <span dir=3D"ltr"> <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">pandey@hotmail.= com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1= px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div id=3D"m_-1590698150933995178m_7650050745517944529m_-655856905434583702= divtagdefaultwrapper" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt; color:#000000; f= ont-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> <p>Thanks for saving me from going back to Facebook or Whatsapp.</p> <p><br> </p> <p>I have stopped patronizing Facebook and Google to the extent I can since= they starting inserting bias in their algorithms to influence the election= s in favor of the candidate that lost.</p> <p>I do not trust google searches to give me an unbiased results. And= I have not visited my Facebook account for years. </p> <p><br> </p> <p>Sincerely,</p> <p>Ratnendra Pandey</p> <br> <div class=3D"m_-1590698150933995178m_7650050745517944529hm m_-159069815093= 3995178m_7650050745517944529HOEnZb"> <br> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> <br> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> India-gii mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">India-gi= [email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii" rel=3D"n= oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.india-gii.org/ma<wbr>ilman/listi= nfo/india-gii</a><br> <br> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <br> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> India-gii mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]">India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]= org</a><br> <a href=3D"https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii" rel=3D"n= oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.india-gii.org/<wbr>mailman/listi= nfo/india-gii</a><br> <br> </blockquote> </div> <br> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> --_000_CO2PR01MB204045C2ECC0A650620B3FE5C88F0CO2PR01MB2040prod_-- --===============7039179763424800128== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KSW5kaWEtZ2lp IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApJbmRpYS1naWlAbGlzdHMuaW5kaWEtZ2lpLm9yZwpodHRwczovL2xpc3Rz LmluZGlhLWdpaS5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pbmRpYS1naWkK --===============7039179763424800128==--