Re: [dinosaur] Hypothetical dinosauroid civilisation
Jeff Hecht <[email protected]> Mon, 30 Dec 2019 17:48:11 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.dinosaurs.general |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--Apple-Mail=_4B6E17C8-5CBB-4384-869A-08FC84B6DB42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-printable It makes an interesting science-fiction scenario. What I used as evidence i= n "Extinction Theory" (Analog Science Fiction, March 1989) was a gold ring = on a fossilized finger bone.=20=0A=0AExtinction by nuclear war could leave = traces in some ways similar to the iridium layer after the end-Cretaceous i= mpact. A marker of some sort would be helpful in searching the geologic rec= ord.=0A=0AHow long a civilization lasted and the rate at which it generated= long lived and recognizable artifacts also are important factors. A civili= zation that burns through natural resources at our present rate would not b= e likely to be leaving readily recognizable monuments over the whole planet= for tens of thousands of years.=20=0A=0A-- Jeff Hecht=0A=0A> On Dec 30, 20= 19, at 5:13 PM, Alaric Shapli <[email protected]> wrote:=0A>=20=0A> I wou= ld imagine that a truly advanced civilization would have likely had an impa= ct on earlier parts of the fossil record, as well- they would have likely d= one paleontology of their own, shifting earlier remains upwards, and would = likely have used up a certain amount of fossil fuel reserves. Not sure to w= hat extent any of that would have happened.=0A>=20=0A> On 12/30/2019 4:59 P= M, Thomas Richard Holtz wrote:=0A>> Greetings,=0A>>=20=0A>> Exactly the sam= e as we have preserved for Paleolithic humans: stone and bone tools and art= ifacts, modified shells and beads, fire pits, etc. (The chances of finding = petroglyphs and cave paintings would be slim, since we would need to find a= ctual rock surfaces from that time period which were subsequently buried.)= =0A>>=20=0A>> A more advanced dinosauroid culture--an actual civilization [= that is, a culture that builds cities]--would have a greater chance of pres= ervation, as the artifacts they make become larger and more preservable. (F= or example, buildings, roads, metal tools, trash middens, etc.) And even mo= re technologically advanced civilizations might leave behind the remains of= plastics, massive erosional surfaces (i.e., mines and developmen= t), landfills, and an isotopic signature related to industrial waste produc= ts (including greenhouse gases).=0A>>=20=0A>> On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 4:52 = PM Poekilopleuron <[email protected] <mailto:dinosaurtom2015@seznam= .cz>> wrote:=0A>> Good day to all listmembers, I have an unusual question r= egarding hypothetical civilisation of highly intelligent dinosaurs, or "din= osauroids". Would it be possible for us to find some traces of late Cretace= ous civilisation similar to - say - human societies of late Pleistocene (la= te stone age)? What would be its most remarkable traits (markers) in the fo= ssil record? Thank you for your thoughts!=0A>>=20=0A>>=20=0A>> --=20=0A>> T= homas R. Holtz, Jr.=0A>> Email: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> = Phone: 301-405-4084=0A>> Principal Lecturer, Vertebrate Paleontology=0A= >> Office: Geology 4106, 8000 Regents Dr., College Park MD 20742=0A>> Dept.= of Geology, University of Maryland=0A>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/= v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.geol.umd.edu_-7Etholtz_&d=3DDwIFAg&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAV= EOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=3DJMxjjbIZXCWilersPs1bzRx-3mUwTiQUzlyzWk7= v7k4&m=3DatDjCYaP09s3Xj6GG8XzntaXYGZ6COqpL9gY7ckfcPc&s=3D82-EI-X9qaEZCLzBfl= 8WtXSlWVvGYI19hts40vp8_Jc&e=3D <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u= =3Dhttp-3A__www.geol.umd.edu_-7Etholtz_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0= NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=3DRy_mO4IFaUmGof_Yl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI&m= =3DM-8JFIle4fI02hvWrF3RZo3YhW6ostVtGbhqdA_QBlc&s=3DD6npjd_vHszLS58bXP_DNyEa= vN1mfoq0IMHCEvtFzww&e=3D>=0A>> Phone: 301-405-6965=0A>> Fax: 301-314-9661= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=0A>>=20=0A>> Faculty Director, S= cience & Global Change Program, College Park Scholars=0A>> Office: Centrevi= lle 1216, 4243 Valley Dr., College Park MD 20742=0A>> https://urldefense.pr= oofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.geol.umd.edu_sgc&d=3DDwIFAg&c=3DclK7kQ= UTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=3DJMxjjbIZXCWilersPs1bzRx-3mUwTiQUz= lyzWk7v7k4&m=3DatDjCYaP09s3Xj6GG8XzntaXYGZ6COqpL9gY7ckfcPc&s=3DihR_bKhGuci0= QECFCVRxBRjfP0zT_jnF9llocJAEbHw&e=3D <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2= /url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.geol.umd.edu_sgc&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0N= U5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=3DRy_mO4IFaUmGof_Yl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI&m=3D= M-8JFIle4fI02hvWrF3RZo3YhW6ostVtGbhqdA_QBlc&s=3D4kEbxMBhlD8NQZwqotfr_vJeRZ1= YRbUyKMChXUhulrQ&e=3D>=0A>> Fax: 301-314-9843=0A>>=20=0A>> Mailing Address:= Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.=0A>> Department of Geo= logy=0A>> Building 237, Room 1117=0A>> = 8000 Regents Drive=0A>> University of M= aryland=0A>> College Park, MD 20742-4211 USA=0A=0A= =0A= --Apple-Mail=_4B6E17C8-5CBB-4384-869A-08FC84B6DB42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">It = makes an interesting science-fiction scenario. What I used as evidence = in "Extinction Theory" (Analog Science Fiction, March 1989) was a gold = ring on a fossilized finger bone. <div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Extinction by nuclear war could leave = traces in some ways similar to the iridium layer after the = end-Cretaceous impact. A marker of some sort would be helpful in = searching the geologic record.</div><div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">How long a civilization lasted and the = rate at which it generated long lived and recognizable artifacts also = are important factors. A civilization that burns through natural = resources at our present rate would not be likely to be leaving readily = recognizable monuments over the whole planet for tens of thousands of = years. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">-- = Jeff Hecht<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" = class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Dec 30, 2019, at 5:13 PM, Alaric Shapli = <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""> =20 <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = charset=3DUTF-8" class=3D""> =20 <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D""><p class=3D"">I = would imagine that a truly advanced civilization would have likely had an impact on earlier parts of the fossil record, as well- they would have likely done paleontology of their own, shifting earlier remains upwards, and would likely have used up a certain amount of fossil fuel reserves. Not sure to what extent any of that would have happened.<br class=3D""> </p> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 12/30/2019 4:59 PM, Thomas Richard Holtz wrote:<br class=3D""> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite" = cite=3D"mid:[email protected]= .com" class=3D""> <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; = charset=3DUTF-8" class=3D""> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Greetings, <div class=3D""><br class=3D""> </div> <div class=3D"">Exactly the same as we have preserved for = Paleolithic humans: stone and bone tools and artifacts, modified shells and beads, fire pits, etc. (The chances of finding petroglyphs and cave paintings would be slim, since we would need to find actual rock surfaces from that time period which were subsequently buried.)</div> <div class=3D""><br class=3D""> </div> <div class=3D"">A more advanced dinosauroid culture--an actual = civilization [that is, a culture that builds cities]--would have a greater chance of preservation, as the artifacts they make become larger and more preservable. (For example, buildings, roads, metal tools, trash middens, etc.) And even more technologically advanced civilizations might leave behind the remains of plastics, massive erosional surfaces (i.e., mines and development), landfills, and an isotopic signature related to industrial waste products (including greenhouse = gases).</div> </div> <br class=3D""> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at = 4:52 PM Poekilopleuron <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" moz-do-not-send=3D"true" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(= 204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Good day to all listmembers, I have an unusual question regarding hypothetical civilisation of highly intelligent dinosaurs, or "dinosauroids". Would it be possible for us to find some traces of late Cretaceous civilisation similar to - say - human societies of late Pleistocene (late stone age)? What would be its most remarkable traits (markers) in the fossil record? Thank you for your thoughts!<br class=3D""> </blockquote> </div> <br clear=3D"all" class=3D""> <div class=3D""><br class=3D""> </div> -- <br class=3D""> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""> <div class=3D""> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""> <div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" = class=3D""><span = style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125= )" class=3D"">T</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" = class=3D""><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif" class=3D"">homas R. Holtz, Jr.<br = class=3D""> <font size=3D"2" class=3D"">Email: </font><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" style=3D"color:purple" target=3D"_blank" = moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"">[email protected]</a><font size=3D"2" = class=3D""> Phone: = 301-405-4084</font><br class=3D""> <font size=3D"2" class=3D"">Principal Lecturer, = Vertebrate Paleontology</font></font></span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" class=3D""><span = style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=3D""><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif" class=3D"">Office: Geology 4106, 8000 = Regents Dr., College Park MD 20742</font></span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" class=3D""><span = style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=3D""><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif" class=3D"">Dept. of Geology, = University of Maryland<br class=3D""> <a = href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.geol.umd= .edu_-7Etholtz_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7= CSfnc_gI&r=3DRy_mO4IFaUmGof_Yl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI&m=3DM-8JF= Ile4fI02hvWrF3RZo3YhW6ostVtGbhqdA_QBlc&s=3DD6npjd_vHszLS58bXP_DNyEavN1= mfoq0IMHCEvtFzww&e=3D" style=3D"color:purple" target=3D"_blank" = moz-do-not-send=3D"true" = class=3D"">http://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/</a></font></span></div><div = style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" class=3D""><span = style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=3D""><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif" class=3D"">Phone: 301-405-6965<br = class=3D""> Fax: = 301-314-9661 = <br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> Faculty Director, Science & Global Change Program, College Park = Scholars</font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" = class=3D""><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif" class=3D""><span = style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=3D"">Office: Centreville 1216</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" = class=3D"">, 4243 Valley Dr., College Park MD 20742<br = class=3D""> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" = class=3D""><a = href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.geol.umd= .edu_sgc&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_g= I&r=3DRy_mO4IFaUmGof_Yl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI&m=3DM-8JFIle4fI0= 2hvWrF3RZo3YhW6ostVtGbhqdA_QBlc&s=3D4kEbxMBhlD8NQZwqotfr_vJeRZ1YRbUyKM= ChXUhulrQ&e=3D" style=3D"color:purple" target=3D"_blank" = moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"">http://www.geol.umd.edu/sgc</a><br = class=3D""> Fax: 301-314-9843<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> Mailing = Address: Thomas R. Holtz, = Jr.<br class=3D""> = = Department of Geology<br = class=3D""> = = Building 237, Room = 1117</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" = class=3D""><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=3D""><font = face=3D"arial, sans-serif" class=3D""><font size=3D"2" = class=3D""> &nb= sp;  = ; 8000 Regents Drive</font><br class=3D""> <font size=3D"2" = class=3D""> = = University of Maryland</font><br class=3D""> = = College Park, MD 20742-4211 USA</font></span></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""> <br class=3D""></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_4B6E17C8-5CBB-4384-869A-08FC84B6DB42--