Re: [dinosaur] Hypothetical dinosauroid civilisation
Allan Edels <[email protected]> Mon, 30 Dec 2019 22:49:27 +0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.dinosaurs.general |
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--_000_BN7PR04MB3827914B87C63FC84458CC6BBE270BN7PR04MB3827namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-printable For a science fiction treatment of a dinosaurid advanced civilization (whic= h also includes humans - 65 million years after the non-extinction event) s= ee "West of Eden" by Harry Harrison (1984) (there are 2 more books as they = turned the story into a trilogy).=0A=0AAllan Edels=0A=0A___________________= _____________=0AFrom: [email protected] <[email protected]= u> on behalf of Alaric Shapli <[email protected]>=0ASent: Monday, Decembe= r 30, 2019 5:13 PM=0ATo: [email protected] <dinosaur-l@mymaill= ists.usc.edu>=0ASubject: Re: [dinosaur] Hypothetical dinosauroid civilisati= on=0A=0A=0AI would imagine that a truly advanced civilization would have li= kely had an impact on earlier parts of the fossil record, as well- they wou= ld have likely done paleontology of their own, shifting earlier remains upw= ards, and would likely have used up a certain amount of fossil fuel reserve= s. Not sure to what extent any of that would have happened.=0A=0AOn 12/30/2= 019 4:59 PM, Thomas Richard Holtz wrote:=0AGreetings,=0A=0AExactly the same= as we have preserved for Paleolithic humans: stone and bone tools and arti= facts, modified shells and beads, fire pits, etc. (The chances of finding p= etroglyphs and cave paintings would be slim, since we would need to find ac= tual rock surfaces from that time period which were subsequently buried.)= =0A=0AA more advanced dinosauroid culture--an actual civilization [that is,= a culture that builds cities]--would have a greater chance of preservation= , as the artifacts they make become larger and more preservable. (For examp= le, buildings, roads, metal tools, trash middens, etc.) And even more techn= ologically advanced civilizations might leave behind the remains of plastic= s, massive erosional surfaces (i.e., mines and development), landfills, and= an isotopic signature related to industrial waste products (including gree= nhouse gases).=0A=0AOn Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 4:52 PM Poekilopleuron <dinosau= [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:=0AGood day to = all listmembers, I have an unusual question regarding hypothetical civilisa= tion of highly intelligent dinosaurs, or "dinosauroids". Would it be possib= le for us to find some traces of late Cretaceous civilisation similar to - = say - human societies of late Pleistocene (late stone age)? What would be i= ts most remarkable traits (markers) in the fossil record? Thank you for you= r thoughts!=0A=0A=0A--=0A=0AThomas R. Holtz, Jr.=0AEmail: [email protected]<ma= ilto:[email protected]> Phone: 301-405-4084=0APrincipal Lecturer, Vert= ebrate Paleontology=0A=0AOffice: Geology 4106, 8000 Regents Dr., College Pa= rk MD 20742=0A=0ADept. of Geology, University of Maryland=0Ahttps://urldefe= nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.geol.umd.edu_-7Etholtz_&d=3DDwIF= Aw&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=3DJMxjjbIZXCWilersPs1b= zRx-3mUwTiQUzlyzWk7v7k4&m=3DZiW46VRkWWxYWc6Hwh3g99Z-XXIFfGE2epCxlnfmr0c&s= =3DZwuglsNwKIUkZ_nPZovairY-qc37BVpVO0YGc-xp4gA&e=3D <https://urldefense.pro= ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3F= url-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-25= 3Dhttp-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.geol.umd.edu-5F-2D7Etholtz-5F-2526d-253DDwMFaQ-2526c-2= 53DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc-5FgI-2526r-253DRy-5FmO4IFaUmGof= -5FYl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI-2526m-253DM-2D8JFIle4fI02hvWrF3RZo3YhW6ostV= tGbhqdA-5FQBlc-2526s-253DD6npjd-5FvHszLS58bXP-5FDNyEavN1mfoq0IMHCEvtFzww-25= 26e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C515bb2f56f424f90ebcb08d78d7580fa-257C8= 4df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637133408115538998-26sdata-= 3DWDcKfsnRpvnRT1Ios5kkrIygP5yjkMogeCxzusqx30s-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=3DDwIFA= w&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=3DJMxjjbIZXCWilersPs1bz= Rx-3mUwTiQUzlyzWk7v7k4&m=3DZiW46VRkWWxYWc6Hwh3g99Z-XXIFfGE2epCxlnfmr0c&s=3D= icgC8c2foBIqI0GSGdmjxDOhA3RrqdZRhRnN73JoY0Y&e=3D >=0A=0APhone: 301-405-6965= =0AFax: 301-314-9661=0A=0AFaculty Director, Science & Global Change Program= , College Park Scholars=0A=0AOffice: Centreville 1216, 4243 Valley Dr., Col= lege Park MD 20742=0Ahttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__= www.geol.umd.edu_sgc&d=3DDwIFAw&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfn= c_gI&r=3DJMxjjbIZXCWilersPs1bzRx-3mUwTiQUzlyzWk7v7k4&m=3DZiW46VRkWWxYWc6Hwh= 3g99Z-XXIFfGE2epCxlnfmr0c&s=3DIDBX8vJ9qG72jFGrPnIulz7ohXvdkhmO7MYyCkIeYLs&e= =3D <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__nam04.safelinks= .protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.= com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttp-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.geol.umd.edu-5Fsgc-2526d-25= 3DDwMFaQ-2526c-253DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc-5FgI-2526r-253D= Ry-5FmO4IFaUmGof-5FYl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI-2526m-253DM-2D8JFIle4fI02hv= WrF3RZo3YhW6ostVtGbhqdA-5FQBlc-2526s-253D4kEbxMBhlD8NQZwqotfr-5FvJeRZ1YRbUy= KMChXUhulrQ-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C515bb2f56f424f90ebcb08d7= 8d7580fa-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C6371334081155= 48997-26sdata-3DrcxqClZGAFkrg-252FXy2T-252BiMHvScdrZQWz1KzmCTkBrmlY-253D-26= reserved-3D0&d=3DDwIFAw&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r= =3DJMxjjbIZXCWilersPs1bzRx-3mUwTiQUzlyzWk7v7k4&m=3DZiW46VRkWWxYWc6Hwh3g99Z-= XXIFfGE2epCxlnfmr0c&s=3DFyFoOpy_AW_SCnurvz7iT_CFXTlaGiy7otBHV5fxvDE&e=3D >= =0AFax: 301-314-9843=0A=0AMailing Address: Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.=0A = Department of Geology=0A Build= ing 237, Room 1117=0A=0A 8000 Regents Drive=0A = University of Maryland=0A College = Park, MD 20742-4211 USA=0A= --_000_BN7PR04MB3827914B87C63FC84458CC6BBE270BN7PR04MB3827namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-printable <html>=0A<head>=0A<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; c= harset=3Diso-8859-1">=0A<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P= {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>=0A</head>=0A<body dir=3D"ltr">=0A= <div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;= color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">=0AFor a science fiction treatment of a dinosaurid a= dvanced civilization (which also includes humans - 65 million years after t= he non-extinction event) see "West of Eden" by Harry Harrison (19= 84) (there are 2 more books as they turned the story into a trilogy).</div>= =0A<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12= pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">=0A<br>=0A</div>=0A<div style=3D"font-family: Cal= ibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">=0AAlla= n Edels</div>=0A<div>=0A<div id=3D"appendonsend"></div>=0A<div style=3D"fon= t-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">= =0A<br>=0A</div>=0A<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width= :98%">=0A<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-= serif" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> dinosaur-l-r= [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Alaric Shapl= i <[email protected]><br>=0A<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 30, 2019 = 5:13 PM<br>=0A<b>To:</b> [email protected] <dinosaur-l@myma= illists.usc.edu><br>=0A<b>Subject:</b> Re: [dinosaur] Hypothetical dinos= auroid civilisation</font>=0A<div> </div>=0A</div>=0A<div style=3D"bac= kground-color:#FFFFFF">=0A<p>I would imagine that a truly advanced civiliza= tion would have likely had an impact on earlier parts of the fossil record,= as well- they would have likely done paleontology of their own, shifting e= arlier remains upwards, and would likely have used up a certain=0A amount o= f fossil fuel reserves. Not sure to what extent any of that would have happ= ened.<br>=0A</p>=0A<div class=3D"x_moz-cite-prefix">On 12/30/2019 4:59 PM, = Thomas Richard Holtz wrote:<br>=0A</div>=0A<blockquote type=3D"cite">=0A<di= v dir=3D"ltr">Greetings,=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>Exactly the same as we= have preserved for Paleolithic humans: stone and bone tools and artifacts,= modified shells and beads, fire pits, etc. (The chances of finding petrogl= yphs and cave paintings would be slim, since we would need to find actual r= ock surfaces=0A from that time period which were subsequently buried.)</div= >=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A<div>A more advanced dinosauroid culture--an actua= l civilization [that is, a culture that builds cities]--would have a greate= r chance of preservation, as the artifacts they make become larger and more= preservable. (For example, buildings, roads, metal tools,=0A trash middens= , etc.) And even more technologically advanced civilizations might leave be= hind the remains of plastics, massive erosional surfaces (i.e., mines and d= evelopment), landfills, and an isotopic signature related to industrial was= te products (including=0A greenhouse gases).</div>=0A</div>=0A<br>=0A<div c= lass=3D"x_gmail_quote">=0A<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_attr">On Mon, D= ec 30, 2019 at 4:52 PM Poekilopleuron <<a href=3D"mailto:dinosaurtom2015= @seznam.cz">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br>=0A</div>=0A<blockq= uote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=0A0.8ex; border-le= ft-width:1px; border-left-style:solid; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); = padding-left:1ex">=0AGood day to all listmembers, I have an unusual questio= n regarding hypothetical civilisation of highly intelligent dinosaurs, or &= quot;dinosauroids". Would it be possible for us to find some traces of= late Cretaceous civilisation similar to - say - human societies=0A of late= Pleistocene (late stone age)? What would be its most remarkable traits (ma= rkers) in the fossil record? Thank you for your thoughts!<br>=0A</blockquot= e>=0A</div>=0A<br clear=3D"all">=0A<div><br>=0A</div>=0A-- <br>=0A<div dir= =3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_signature">=0A<div dir=3D"ltr">=0A<div>=0A<div di= r=3D"ltr">=0A<div>=0A<p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"= ><span style=3D"font-size:10pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(3= 1,73,125)">T</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><font face=3D"arial= ,=0A sans-serif">homas R. Holtz, Jr.<br>=0A<font size= =3D"2">Email: </font><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blan= k" style=3D"color:purple">[email protected]</a><font size=3D"2"> &n= bsp; Phone: 301-405-4084</font><br>=0A<font s= ize=3D"2">Principal Lecturer, Vertebrate Paleontology</font></font></span><= /p>=0A<p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D= "color:rgb(31,73,125)"><font face=3D"arial,=0A sans-se= rif">Office: Geology 4106, 8000 Regents Dr., College Park MD 20742</font></= span></p>=0A<p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span st= yle=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><font face=3D"arial,=0A s= ans-serif">Dept. of Geology, University of Maryland<br>=0A<a href=3D"https:= //urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__nam04.safelinks.protection= .outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-= 252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttp-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.geol.umd.edu-5F-2D7Etholtz-5F-2526d-25= 3DDwMFaQ-2526c-253DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc-5FgI-2526r-253D= Ry-5FmO4IFaUmGof-5FYl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI-2526m-253DM-2D8JFIle4fI02hv= WrF3RZo3YhW6ostVtGbhqdA-5FQBlc-2526s-253DD6npjd-5FvHszLS58bXP-5FDNyEavN1mfo= q0IMHCEvtFzww-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C515bb2f56f424f90ebcb08= d78d7580fa-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C63713340811= 5538998-26sdata-3DWDcKfsnRpvnRT1Ios5kkrIygP5yjkMogeCxzusqx30s-253D-26reserv= ed-3D0&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&a= mp;r=3DJMxjjbIZXCWilersPs1bzRx-3mUwTiQUzlyzWk7v7k4&m=3DZiW46VRkWWxYWc6H= wh3g99Z-XXIFfGE2epCxlnfmr0c&s=3DicgC8c2foBIqI0GSGdmjxDOhA3RrqdZRhRnN73J= oY0Y&e=3D" originalsrc=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D= http-3A__www.geol.umd.edu_-7Etholtz_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOV= Igvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=3DRy_mO4IFaUmGof_Yl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJg= FW9SI&m=3DM-8JFIle4fI02hvWrF3RZo3YhW6ostVtGbhqdA_QBlc&s=3DD6npjd_vH= szLS58bXP_DNyEavN1mfoq0IMHCEvtFzww&e=3D" shash=3D"mTGH/LeLhub3OMx85ZREs= jLdnl45Lwhm/x8Ew0ipk47up10a6V2UtrrDRheq8MwUZaRXB9ZFaXqkntOel6mMcc148GDa2D09= P0NAM1NCNkJrW35dW6Za9DzHVuukani00c9lgu4QK9BmtjhFIm2IRogQ3ppcrBHQagM8nOLEg6U= =3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:purple">http://www.geol.umd.edu/~thol= tz/</a></font></span></p>=0A<p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; color:rgb(= 0,0,0)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><font face=3D"arial,=0A = sans-serif">Phone: 301-405-6965<br>=0AFax: 301-314-9661 = ; <= br>=0A<br>=0AFaculty Director, Science & Global Change Program, College= Park Scholars</font></span></p>=0A<p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; col= or:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31= ,73,125)">Office: Centreville 1216</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125= )">, 4243 Valley Dr., College Park MD 20742<br>=0A</span><span style=3D"col= or:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D= https-3A__nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-2= 52Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttp-2D3A-5F-5Fwww.ge= ol.umd.edu-5Fsgc-2526d-253DDwMFaQ-2526c-253DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0= H8p7CSfnc-5FgI-2526r-253DRy-5FmO4IFaUmGof-5FYl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI-25= 26m-253DM-2D8JFIle4fI02hvWrF3RZo3YhW6ostVtGbhqdA-5FQBlc-2526s-253D4kEbxMBhl= D8NQZwqotfr-5FvJeRZ1YRbUyKMChXUhulrQ-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257= C515bb2f56f424f90ebcb08d78d7580fa-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C= 1-257C0-257C637133408115548997-26sdata-3DrcxqClZGAFkrg-252FXy2T-252BiMHvScd= rZQWz1KzmCTkBrmlY-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEO= VIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=3DJMxjjbIZXCWilersPs1bzRx-3mUwTiQUzlyzW= k7v7k4&m=3DZiW46VRkWWxYWc6Hwh3g99Z-XXIFfGE2epCxlnfmr0c&s=3DFyFoOpy_= AW_SCnurvz7iT_CFXTlaGiy7otBHV5fxvDE&e=3D" originalsrc=3D"https://urldef= ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.geol.umd.edu_sgc&d=3DDwMFaQ= &c=3DclK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=3DRy_mO4IFaUmGof= _Yl9MyZgecRCKHn5g4z1CYJgFW9SI&m=3DM-8JFIle4fI02hvWrF3RZo3YhW6ostVtGbhqd= A_QBlc&s=3D4kEbxMBhlD8NQZwqotfr_vJeRZ1YRbUyKMChXUhulrQ&e=3D" shash= =3D"HC2NAYmhGvq3wTQTCkcFKFC/5EqwuhD+RvPDUGywgsIpBFTyNPOMd28ONRDalg/YChx= mqxzrfCLYHqlis+uB/oXdYDDFVgEwxGOC4JG8OJPWtXRUeT0O1GY0CDaOPaH9Aw2oHM+= ;rPkA99JcPbfgFeYiIJiNSxsaKA1pusitz7cE=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:= purple">http://www.geol.umd.edu/sgc</a><br>=0AFax: 301-314-9843<br>=0A<br>= =0AMailing Address: Thomas R. Hol= tz, Jr.<br>=0A = Departm= ent of Geology<br>=0A  = ; = Building 237, Room 1117</span></font></p>=0A<p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00= 01pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><font face=3D"= arial,=0A sans-serif"><font size=3D"2"> &nb= sp; = 8000 Regents Drive</font><= br>=0A<font size=3D"2"> &nb= sp;  = ; University of Maryland</font><br>=0A &= nbsp; &n= bsp; College Park, MD 20742-4211 USA</font></span></p>=0A</div>= =0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</blockquote>=0A</div>=0A</div>=0A</= body>=0A</html>=0A= --_000_BN7PR04MB3827914B87C63FC84458CC6BBE270BN7PR04MB3827namp_--