Re: Seeming hostility to conlang scripts?
Michael De Roover via Unicode <[email protected]> Thu, 28 May 2026 17:11:12 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.text.unicode.general |
|---|---|
| Organization | ideapad.internal |
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --nextPart3532551.44csPzL39Z Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi, I don't think it is unreasonable for Unicode to take this stance on conlang= s, especially those that=20 are the IP of media franchises. Be it Paramount's Star Trek franchise, or t= he Tolkien Estate's=20 languages used for Lord of the Rings... Those are fictional works, and ough= t to be treated as=20 such. Both real-world usage and legal backlash are noteworthy issues here. I would also like to throw in another example, the "Teyvat Script" of Gensh= in Impact, which is a=20 franchise I personally like a lot. It directly translates Latin script into= its own [1], and uses that in=20 game. But does that mean that this script should be encoded into Unicode? O= f course not. It is=20 something that players / fans directly convert back first into Latin script= , then into English (or=20 whichever language miHoYo considered most appropriate for context). As such= , it is a direct=20 derivative of Latin, which is already encoded into ASCII even. While I do empathize with the sentiment of fans of all of the various ficti= onal works covered=20 here, I do not think that this is within scope for the Unicode consortium t= o encode. As a=20 programmer, I do concern myself with the implementation of standards. Mostl= y those of the=20 IETF, not Unicode, but still. Unnecessary bloat makes standards unnecessari= ly more complicated=20 and harder to implement. And while I am a programmer, here it would likely = involve font=20 designers, and programmers implementing text rendering engines, all the sam= e. So please don't=20 bloat the Unicode standard like that. This is not a font repository, and I = think it should stay that=20 way. (If this message can't be sent to Unicode by myself, feel free to / please = relay it on my behalf.) [1] https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Teyvat_Script[1] On Thursday, 28 May 2026 06:29:41 Central European Summer Time Gabriel Tell= ez via Unicode=20 wrote: > Do these scripts (pIqaD, Tengwar, Cirth, Sarati) get used, in any notable > amount, for any purposes that aren't at all related to their > respective fictional universes? In that one document (L2/16-329) that > showed proof of pIqaD being used, only 1 single example was given of pIqaD > being used for something non Star Trek related (and Bing's translator > doesn't even have that feature anymore lol). Like it's not Monopoly in > pIqaD, it's *Star Trek themed* Monopoly in pIqaD. >=20 > On Wed, May 27, 2026 at 4:17=E2=80=AFPM Julian Bradfield via Unicode < >=20 > [email protected]> wrote: > > On 2026-05-27, Vikki McDonough via Unicode <[email protected]> > >=20 > > wrote: > > > Didn't the U.S. Copyright Office definitively state several years back > >=20 > > that > >=20 > > > writing systems *themselves* (as distinct from the fonts used to > >=20 > > *display* > >=20 > > > those writing systems) are not copyrightable ( > >=20 > > Unicode operates in other places than the U.S.A. - that's kind of the > > point of it! > >=20 > > I personally doubt that the Tolkien Estate/Trust would prevail in most > > jurisdictions, but they have deep pockets (they got $24M from the > > films). So unless you have a rich friend who will give an unlimited > > and binding guarantee to bankroll Unicode in all the jurisdictions it > > might be sued in, it ain't going to happen without the Estate's consent. =2D-=20 [Met vriendelijke groet] [Best regards] [Michael De Roover] =2D-- --- --- --- =20 [Mail] [*@nixmagic.com] [michael@[email protected]] [Web] [https://michael.de.roover.eu.org] [Forge] [https://git.nixmagic.com] [Weather] [Antwerpen] [16:00] [27.9=C2=B0C] =2D-- --- --- --- =20 [0] [2026-05-28 16:55 CEST] [~] [[email protected]] [$] [/usr/bin/sign-mail] [>_]=20 =2D-- --- --- --- =20 =2D------- [1] https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Teyvat_Script --nextPart3532551.44csPzL39Z Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8"> </head> <body><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">Hi,</p> <br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">I don't think it is unreasonable for Unicode to take this stance on conl= angs, especially those that are the IP of media franchises. Be it Paramount= 's Star Trek franchise, or the Tolkien Estate's languages used for Lord of = the Rings... Those are fictional works, and ought to be treated as such. Bo= th real-world usage and legal backlash are noteworthy issues here.</p> <br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">I would also like to throw in another example, the "Teyvat Script&q= uot; of Genshin Impact, which is a franchise I personally like a lot. It di= rectly translates Latin script into its own [1], and uses that in game. But= does that mean that this script should be encoded into Unicode? Of course = not. It is something that players / fans directly convert back first into L= atin script, then into English (or whichever language miHoYo considered mos= t appropriate for context). As such, it is a direct derivative of Latin, wh= ich is already encoded into ASCII even.</p> <br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">While I do empathize with the sentiment of fans of all of the various fi= ctional works covered here, I do not think that this is within scope for th= e Unicode consortium to encode. As a programmer, I do concern myself with t= he implementation of standards. Mostly those of the IETF, not Unicode, but = still. Unnecessary bloat makes standards unnecessarily more complicated and= harder to implement. And while I am a programmer, here it would likely inv= olve font designers, and programmers implementing text rendering engines, a= ll the same. So please don't bloat the Unicode standard like that. This is = not a font repository, and I think it should stay that way.</p> <br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">(If this message can't be sent to Unicode by myself, feel free to / plea= se relay it on my behalf.)</p> <br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">[1] <a href=3D"https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Teyvat_Script">htt= ps://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Teyvat_Script</a></p> <br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">On Thursday, 28 May 2026 06:29:41 Central European Summer Time Gabriel T= ellez via Unicode wrote:</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; Do these scripts (pIqaD, Tengwar, Cirth, Sarati) get used, in any notable= </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; amount, for any purposes that aren't at all related to their</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; respective fictional universes? In that one document (L2/16-329) that</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; showed proof of pIqaD being used, only 1 single example was given of pIqa= D</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; being used for something non Star Trek related (and Bing's translator</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; doesn't even have that feature anymore lol). Like it's not Monopoly in</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; pIqaD, it's *Star Trek themed* Monopoly in pIqaD.</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; On Wed, May 27, 2026 at 4:17=E2=80=AFPM Julian Bradfield via Unicode <= </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; [email protected]> wrote:</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > On 2026-05-27, Vikki McDonough via Unicode <[email protected].= org></p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > wrote:</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > > Didn't the U.S. Copyright Office definitively state several yea= rs back</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > that</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > > writing systems *themselves* (as distinct from the fonts used t= o</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > *display*</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > > those writing systems) are not copyrightable (</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > Unicode operates in other places than the U.S.A. - that's kind of th= e</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > point of it!</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > I personally doubt that the Tolkien Estate/Trust would prevail in mo= st</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > jurisdictions, but they have deep pockets (they got $24M from the</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > films). So unless you have a rich friend who will give an unlimited<= /p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > and binding guarantee to bankroll Unicode in all the jurisdictions i= t</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; > might be sued in, it ain't going to happen without the Estate's cons= ent.</p> <br /><br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-r= ight:0;">-- </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[Me= t vriendelijke groet] [Best regards]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[Mi= chael De Roover]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">---= --- --- &= nbsp; --- </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[Ma= il] [*@nixmagic.com] [michael@[email protected]]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[We= b] [https://michael.de.roover.eu.org]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[Fo= rge] [https://git.nixmagic.com]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[We= ather] [Antwerpen] [16:00] [27.9=C2=B0C]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">---= --- --- &= nbsp; --- </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[0]= [2026-05-28 16:55 CEST]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[~]= [[email protected]]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[$]= [/usr/bin/sign-mail] [>_] </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">---= --- --- &= nbsp; --- </p> <br /></body> </html> --nextPart3532551.44csPzL39Z--