Re: Seeming hostility to conlang scripts?
Michael De Roover via Unicode <[email protected]> Sat, 30 May 2026 12:54:50 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.text.unicode.general |
|---|---|
| Organization | ideapad.internal |
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --nextPart25188453.ouqheUzb2q Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I do think that the call to only consider legal advice from lawyers, is rea= sonable when it comes=20 to potential legal issues like this one. But who should bear the legal cost= of this? Should it be the=20 proponents of a given contentious request, or should it be Unicode, or some= one else? And what,=20 if any, should the default response be in the absence of legal support? I ask this because I remember this having been seriously abused in the IETF= before, on account=20 of their rigid processes around such legal claims against them. On their pa= rt, the IETF LLC was=20 the one who was repeatedly on the hook for investigating these claims, unab= le to short-circuit=20 them with a blanket "no" response. My fear is that if Unicode makes similar= such processes, this=20 could be similarly abused by litigious members, who may or may not be actin= g in bad faith. The IETF lists appeals they receive, as well as their responses, at https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/ group/iesg/appeals/[1]. 2025-2026 saw a noticeable uptick in their incidenc= e rate, 9 of those=20 coming from a single member. The only other time this has happened (from wh= at I can tell, and=20 before my time), was in 2005-2006, with also 9 claims coming from a single = member. Note also that these appeals artifacts are heavily condensed. The appeals f= rom 2025-2026 are=20 ones I had the displeasure of seeing be accompanied by hundreds, if not tho= usands, of=20 messages in long ML threads that spanned many months of time being usurped = by=20 nonproductive arguments. I don't have any solutions to this, neither for th= e IETF nor for Unicode,=20 but the IETF's process unfortunately appears to be highly exploitable. On Saturday, 30 May 2026 03:20:41 Central European Summer Time Tex via Unic= ode wrote: > It seems like this discussion comes up every few months. > Isn't there a FAQ we can point to, to short circuit these threads? >=20 > Perhaps there should also be a faq stating that those offering legal > opinions should first of all be lawyers, and second of all provide an > estimate of the legal costs if their approach is pursued. I say this not = to > dismiss anyone's opinion but to highlight there is no point in arguing > points of law in this list. I doubt the consortium is going to take legal > advice from this list or that something that has not already been > considered will be revealed here and that legal costs are not > inconsiderable and perhaps inestimable. >=20 >=20 > Tex > No AI was used authoring my text =2D-=20 [Met vriendelijke groet] [Best regards] [Michael De Roover] =2D-- --- --- --- =20 [Mail] [*@nixmagic.com] [michael@[email protected]] [Web] [https://michael.de.roover.eu.org] [Forge] [https://git.nixmagic.com] [Weather] [Antwerpen] [12:00] [27.6=C2=B0C] =2D-- --- --- --- =20 [0] [2026-05-30 12:13 CEST] [~] [[email protected]] [$] [/usr/bin/sign-mail] [>_]=20 =2D-- --- --- --- =20 =2D------- [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/iesg/appeals/ --nextPart25188453.ouqheUzb2q Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8"> </head> <body><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">I do think that the call to only consider legal advice from lawyers, is = reasonable when it comes to potential legal issues like this one. But who s= hould bear the legal cost of this? Should it be the proponents of a given c= ontentious request, or should it be Unicode, or someone else? And what, if = any, should the default response be in the absence of legal support?</p> <br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">I ask this because I remember this having been seriously abused in the I= ETF before, on account of their rigid processes around such legal claims ag= ainst them. On their part, the IETF LLC was the one who was repeatedly on t= he hook for investigating these claims, unable to short-circuit them with a= blanket "no" response. My fear is that if Unicode makes similar = such processes, this could be similarly abused by litigious members, who ma= y or may not be acting in bad faith.</p> <br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">The IETF lists appeals they receive, as well as their responses, at <a h= ref=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/iesg/appeals/">https://datatracke= r.ietf.org/group/iesg/appeals/</a>. 2025-2026 saw a noticeable uptick in th= eir incidence rate, 9 of those coming from a single member. The only other = time this has happened (from what I can tell, and before my time), was in 2= 005-2006, with also 9 claims coming from a single member.</p> <br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">Note also that these appeals artifacts are heavily condensed. The appeal= s from 2025-2026 are ones I had the displeasure of seeing be accompanied by= hundreds, if not thousands, of messages in long ML threads that spanned ma= ny months of time being usurped by nonproductive arguments. I don't have an= y solutions to this, neither for the IETF nor for Unicode, but the IETF's p= rocess unfortunately appears to be highly exploitable.</p> <br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0= ;">On Saturday, 30 May 2026 03:20:41 Central European Summer Time Tex via U= nicode wrote:</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; It seems like this discussion comes up every few months.</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; Isn't there a FAQ we can point to, to short circuit these threads?</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; Perhaps there should also be a faq stating that those offering legal</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; opinions should first of all be lawyers, and second of all provide an</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; estimate of the legal costs if their approach is pursued. I say this not = to</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; dismiss anyone's opinion but to highlight there is no point in arguing</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; points of law in this list. I doubt the consortium is going to take legal= </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; advice from this list or that something that has not already been</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; considered will be revealed here and that legal costs are not</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; inconsiderable and perhaps inestimable.</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; Tex</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">>= ; No AI was used authoring my text</p> <br /><br /><p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-r= ight:0;">-- </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[Me= t vriendelijke groet] [Best regards]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[Mi= chael De Roover]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">---= --- --- &= nbsp; --- </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[Ma= il] [*@nixmagic.com] [michael@[email protected]]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[We= b] [https://michael.de.roover.eu.org]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[Fo= rge] [https://git.nixmagic.com]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[We= ather] [Antwerpen] [12:00] [27.6=C2=B0C]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">---= --- --- &= nbsp; --- </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[0]= [2026-05-30 12:13 CEST]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[~]= [[email protected]]</p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">[$]= [/usr/bin/sign-mail] [>_] </p> <p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">---= --- --- &= nbsp; --- </p> <br /></body> </html> --nextPart25188453.ouqheUzb2q--